Q&A MISC. Bread Questions
Until we can figure out a more sophisticated way to handle your feedback, your praise and your questions, we hope the following series of Q&A posts will help. Our goal is to get a conversation going about a particular topic in one location. Hoping that it will be easier for you to follow and get the information you need to bake gorgeous bread.
If we haven’t started a thread on the subject you are interested in then leave it here and we can create another post!
Thank you so much for all of the conversation. We enjoy it immensely and are learning so much from you all!
Zoë and Jeff
MC: Over time, our doughs do seem to get “wetter” as fermentation by-products build up. Not usually to the extent you describe, but it happens. More so when there’s rye flour in the mixture, as in the Peasant. A good way to deal with it is to work in additional flour– that always works for me when this has happened. Is it possible that your refrigerator is running a little warm?
Next book will have weight and metric equivalents… you’re not the first one to ask. Jeff
Actually my fridge is okay (I just invested in a thermometer) but the dough had travelled between my weekday home and my weekend one and it might have warmed up then. Anyway I added a cup of bread flour to what was left (a fair amount) and mixed it on low speed and the dough now looks gorgeous. I’ll let it rest a few days (I like the taste of well fermented dough) and will try again.
I am glad to hear about the weight and metric equivalents for the new book. On another subject, if you need beta testers for your sourdough recipes (if there are any in the book), I’ll be glad to help out. My main focus of interest right now is taste. When I made a 5 min dough using sourdough, I thought the flavor wasn’t as good as with yeasted dough (which is very weird because I much prefer sourdough to yeast in almost everything else). I’d be curious to see what parameters would need to be changed to obtain a more satisfying result.
MC: We’ll look forward to hearing the results of your experiments.
I’m pretty sure that your dough over-fermented on the trip between home and your weekend place, and I’m glad you were able to fix it by adding in more flour. Jeff
Thank you for publishing this book! I had success with Leahy’s No-Knead Bread, but the flavor of your basic dough is better and it is so much more versatile.
I read in your book that I should preheat the oven for 20 minutes and then put the bread in even though the oven won’t be up to temperature yet. My oven gets to 450 in about 10 minutes. I have been putting the dough in when the temp reaches 450, but should I do the full 20-minute preheat to ensure that the stone is hot enough? The bottom of my loaves tends to be on the soft side, but not undercooked by any means. (Leahy’s method gives very crusty bottoms, so I’m not sure whether I’m getting the right result for your recipe.) I’m also wondering if the shorter preheat could affect oven spring.
Thanks!
Hi Diann,
So glad you are enjoying the book and all the bread.
It sounds like your stone may not be thoroughly heated after the 10 minute preheat. I’d let it go for the full 20 minutes and your stone will have absorbed more heat and that will help your bottom crust.
Another trick is to turn the bread upside down for the last 5 minutes to crisp that bottom crust.
Thanks, Zoë
Hello again! I am still loving working thru the book. I made the couronne and the carmelized onion dinner rolls last night for a family dinner. The were a hit. The onions were also great on a patty melt on the rye a couple of weeks ago. I did have a problem with the oatmeal bread. I filled 1/2 way, let rest 1-1/2 hours and still didn’t rise much. It tasted ok. I bought some gluten for next time but am I expecting too much?
Thanks,
Beth
Beth: When you say it didn’t rise much, do you also mean that the crumb inside was overly dense and unappetizing? Or was the interior OK (in which case I wouldn’t make any changes.
If you’d like to get more rise, you can experiment with vital wheat gluten in the recipe, though you might need a bit more water too. Jeff
Besides pizza and flatbread, what other breads do you cook on the grill (charcoal in my case), how do you go about doing it, and what special tips do you have? Thanks so much!
Kati: Non-flatbreads are tough on the grill. The thin stuff works much better with this kind of heat source (see page 140 in the book). That said, I occasionally do a loaf bread (free-form or pan-risen) on my gas grill, with the stone set in place. But I’ve never tried this on a charcoal grill. My guess is that the heat source would be too variable for this to work well. But if you try it and it works, please let us know how you did it.
If you’re in Minneapolis-St. Paul, Zoe and I are doing a gas grill-bread class at Cooks of Crocus Hill in St. Paul–give them a shout to see if there’s still room in the class (https://www.cooksofcrocushill.com/). Jeff
Thanks for your prompt reply and input, Jeff! I wish I could attend your class–what a great theme! I’m already imagining the wonderful scent of grilled flatbreads and pizza….
I wouldn’t say it was overly dense and it tasted ok. It just was a flat. Nowhere near the loft as the oatmeal bread I usually make. I’ll try the gluten and see. Thanks for the feed back.
Beth
Hi Beth,
You may also want to fill the pan more than we indicate in the book to get a higher loaf. We wanted an amount that wouldn’t take too long to rise, but it does make for a rather short and flat loaf. I usually fill my pan about 3/4 full and then let it rise for 2+ hours before baking. It is a longer wait but the look will be more like what you are used to.
I’d also try Jeff’s suggestion of the vital wheat gluten.
Thanks, Zoë
I am having a hard time telling when the bread is fully baked. I have a thermometer in the oven and it shows 450 degrees. I usually have to leave the bread in for an extra 10-20 min. more then what is stated in the book. When I cut into it the middle seems tacky. A tooth pick still comes out with bread on it. The taste is great! I have tried the instant thermometer in the bread and when it settled down it showed 214. Anyway and other hints on how to tell when it is finished baking? Thanks! Love the book.
Marv
Marv: First question, are you letting the bread cool completely before you try to cut it? Our stuff tends to seem gummy and undercooked if you eat it warm, even if it’s fully baked.
2nd: Are you making really big loaves, especially if you opt for the loaf pan recipes? Those are harder to get fully baked. Our loaf pan recipes specify a relatively small pan (9x4x3inch); are you using one that’s bigger than that?
As for the thermometer, 214 F should be good enough. Are you saying that even at 214, the loaves are doughy and undercooked?
And then, is it possible you’re mixing your dough too wet? It should look like the pictures at https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=121#more-121, but not any wetter than that. If it is, try increasing the flour by 1/8 cup at a time and see what happens. Speaking of flour, are you using bleached flour? That doesn’t absorb enough water and you end up with an over-wet dough. Jeff
Jeff and Zoe,
I LOVE your book! The recipes and breads are fantastic and great for a foodie like me who has 2 little boys to care for and not much time.
The fougasse tastes like the real thing I used to get in my grandmother’s mountain village bakery in the south of France – and that’s saying a lot!
I am unashamedly a bread snob yet you have won my heart.
Thanks
Magalee: Thanks so much. I had that fougasse in Provence and was dying to make it once I got home. Turned out it wasn’t difficult.
Did you grow up in France? If we can get the French to make our bread, we’ll know we’ve succeeded!
Thanks again—- Jeff
I tried Jeff and Zoe’s technique of adding water to a hot pan to create a crisp crust, but it was a little bit of a pain. I’d be in such a hurry to pour in the water and close the oven door that I’d wind up practically throwing the water into the oven and then struggling to get the oven rack back in place quickly.
So I started throwing three or four ice cubes on the hot floor of my electric oven just before sliding in the bread. The result: crisp crust and total relaxation, which I feel is in keeping with this whole pursuit.
I haven’t read all the messages here, so my apologies if this has already been discussed. In that case, I’ll just say that it works for me!
Thanks for a great book!
David
David: You know, a lot of authors have you throw ice cubes onto a hot broiler pan (not usually the bottom of the oven, but if it doesn’t seem to be damaging anything, more power to you). I always assumed it would supply steam a little more slowly so neither I nor Zoe tested this method. If you’ve found it works, my guess is that it’s just as good. Thanks for the tip! Jeff
Have been going through your book recipe by recipe but so happy to attend the class in Edina, MN and get some good tips. With the fruit growing season upon us, I’m wondering how to add, say rhubarb, to a recipe. I’d prefer not to add it to the brioche. Would you suggest one of the breads that would give a good result. Strawberries,raspberries and apples will be coming and I like to incorporate such in breads if I can. I’m having fun with the breads and the comments from those who taste are all good especially when I had been gone for a week to our son’s wedding, came home and had guests for dinner 3 hours later with fresh bread on the table. Elsa McKenna
Hi Elsa,
Thanks for the note.
I would try slicing up the rhubarb very thin and adding it raw to the whole wheat or oatmeal breads. It will release some liquid in the bread as it bakes but these doughs should hold up to that.
Thanks and I think I’ll be giving this a try myself.
Zoë
Hi Zoe and Jeff,
I’ve been having problems with the white bread recipe on pages 204 and 205. I end up with a decent tasting loaf of bread, but the loaf itself doesn’t rise up enough to be even considered a loaf-sized bread.
Is it normal for the dough to collapse after only a day in the fridge? By collapse, I mean the dough rose to the 5 quart line but then it’ll collapse down to the 2nd.
How do I determine I have enough dough in my loaf pan? I must not be understanding the recipe when it says to fill the pan more than half full. I tried one of the methods a previous commenter suggested of dividing up the dough into containers before the initial 2 hour rise. However, even this method isn’t working out well for me.
Do any of you have an idea of what I may be doing wrong?
Candace: First off, it’s normal for the dough to collapse in the fridge; not to worry. As for the loaf bread, there’s an easy solution: just put more dough into the pan! Our “fill halfway” instruction erred on the side of quicker baking and avoiding gumminess. But if you fill it higher, let’s say 3/4’s, you’ll get a higher, more pleasing shape that will bulge over the top of the pan as it bakes. You’ll need more baking time, up to 30% more, but watch that you don’t burn in there.
Let me know how you make out with this. Jeff
Jeff,
Thank you for your quick response. I’m glad the collapsed dough had nothing to do with the rising of my bread in the loaf pan at all!
I will bake up a new batch next week with the pan 3/4s filled and I’ll let you know of the results.
Hi Jeff, This is a slow response to your quick and helpful reply to my post on May 4. Good for my dignity, too, as I was sure that you had written it and I had missed it! Thanks for the kindness and patience in your response. I will invest in a container with a proper lid. I had become rather cocky with how “bomb proof” the core recipe is, and again it pays to follow the directions.
Thanks,
Joy
Joy: appararently the beer-making stores sell food-grade buckets with a little vent in the lid…
Or just go the cheap way and us a large plastic ice cream bucket. Whatever works.
Jeff
Hi Jeff and Zoe,
I love the way I can make a new batch of dough without ever washing the big bucket!! Saves work – and keeps us constantly in fresh bread! 😉 Today I was finally fairly successful with a batch of Pain d Epi – but I just noticed that the dough recipe is not the Master recipe but has 7 c. flour…(I guess I added enough flour when I shaped it so that it worked anyway). Anyway, now I have a new batch of Buttermilk dough going and I am wondering if it is only suitable in a loaf pan, or does it do well in a free form loaf? Will it work well in pecan caramel rolls? I loved the cinnamon swirl bread with this dough. Thanks, Dianne
Lady Di: Laziness is my number one concern when we design a new recipe or technique. Never washing the bucket was part of that.
About the epi… it’s easier to get the “grains” to form with a firmer dough, but as you found, it can be done with the looser stuff as well. Using bread flour can achieve the same result (keeping the flour to 6 1/2 cups).
The buttermilk dough works quite nicely as a freeform loaf, or as a base for caramel rolls. Give it a try and let me know how you make out. Jeff
I have a question about ‘refrigerator rising’ the breads for more convenience in the morning..If I shape a loaf in a bread pan, or cinnamon rolls, should I let them rise before overnight refrigeration and then bake immediately in the morning– or do I need to let the dough rise at RT for a while — or is the rising all taking place at refrigerator temps? I would like to be able to do most of the prep in the evening and spend little time waiting to bake first thing in the a.m.
Thanks!
Yes, I am French although I have emigrated.
I am appalled and saddened to see that the French now eat plastic sliced bread with their meals – well, that’s what I see when I go back to visit.
Finding a good baguette is hard nowdays and sourdough bakeries are a rarity.
Yes, I would say your techniques produce breads that surpass what most French eat everyday.
I am a self-confessed bread snob. I have managed to educate my British husband about bread but not my French family!
After purchasing your book in March and making bread every other day I realized that my bread knife was not able to cut through the crunchy crust. I did some research online and a found a fabulous, inexpensive bread knife along with a wonderful tomato knife. I have since purchased 2 bread knives and 3 tomato knives. I thought I would share this website with your readers. https://www.sourdoughbreads.com/BreadKnife.htm
Lady Di: we’ve actually had decent success baking the fridge-risen loaves when cold in the morning. Don’t do it on really big ones and you’ll be happier. Otherwise you may get some over-dense stuff.
Magalee: Thanks for all the insight about France and the current state of
French bread. Very interesting.
Jeff
Thanks about the bread knife Barbara. Neither Zoe nor I have used it so we can’t comment, but we always like to get readers comments out on these products. Jeff
Thanks for your response, Jeff. Are you saying that all the rising time would be in the refrigerator, then, no time necessary to raise at room temp before the refrigeration?
Yes, because the overnight rise completely expands the dough. But we’ve only done this for modest-sized loaves. In any case, you can take it out of the fridge while the oven’s pre-heating. Jeff
I’ve been experimenting with a recipe but I’ve got a problem I was hoping you might have some ideas on. What I’ve done is take the brioche dough recipe, but add melted semi-sweet chocolate and the sweet cocoa that ghiradelli makes to it to create a sweeter version of the chocolate bread. Then, I flattened it and spread a cinnamon sugar and butter mix on it, rolled it up and put it in a loaf pan. It rises about an hour and a half and gets baked for 45 minutes at 350. I generally drizzle frosting over the top made from confectioners sugar. I loved the flavor. However, there’s one big problem. Towards the center of the loaf, about 2/3 of the way down from the top, the dough was a little gooey. Any idea what I’m doing wrong? I’m trying to avoid cooking any longer since I want to keep it moist and the top of the loaf is starting to get a little dry after 45 minutes already. The loaf was still slightly warm on the bottom when I cut into it but only slightly. I didn’t have the problem with another loaf of bread cooked for a shorter time out of the same batch of dough, but without anything rolled up in it. I also have this problem when I’ve done a cinnamon sugar roll with the regular brioche dough. I didn’t seem to have the same issues when I used pie filling or brown sugar in other brioche roll up recipes I’ve tried, but maybe I just got lucky or it wasn’t as noticeable. I know this isn’t exactly the recipe out of your book, but any ideas?
I’d also like to say that I am still loving baking out of your book. My favorite things I’ve come up with so far are all some sort of rolled up loaf with stuff in it, like onions, herbs, pie filling, pizza sauce, pepperoni, etc. I hope sometime you might have a thread where all your devoted fans can share recipes on here. I’d bet some of my fellow bakers have come up with some spectacular ways to run with your recipes. Thanks for writing this great book and I’ll definitely be on the pre-order list when the new book eventually comes out! Thanks for all the help you give us on here.
Thanks,
Daryl
Thanks Daryl, I really appreciate your comments. When things don’t quite get done in the center, two things come to mind:
First, is there any chance that you’re oven is running warm? Have you tested with an oven thermometer? It sounds like the outside is browning before the inside is fully set, and that can be a sign of an overly hot oven.
Second, it’s possible that the changes you’ve made have resulted in a dough that’s wetter than what we started with in the book. That’s going to result in a loaf that’s difficult to finish in the center, because our doughs are wet in the first place. If things are looking too wet, you’ll need to decrease the liquids, or add a bit more flour.
Hope this helps! Jeff
Thanks Jeff. I’ve checked the oven and it’s right on temperature. I do notice that the dough is wetter than the other doughs in the book so I’ll try backing off the water a bit more, especially since the problem seems to crop up when I’m adding wet or meltable fillings. If that doesn’t work, I’ll try cooking at a lower temperature .
Thanks much for the help!
Dar
Great, let me know what happens. Jeff
Jeff,
I managed to fill my loaf pan 3/4 of the way and I ended up with a nicely shaped loaf after all! Now the problem is that while in the book the white bread recipe states it makes about three 1.5 loaves of bread, in my kitchen I only can eke out two unless I do it my old way and bake three unflattering loaves of bread.
Would increasing the amount of flour 1/4 cup at a time help solve this problem?
No, definitely not, adding more flour to give you more dough mass will give you a too-dry result and you won’t be happy. You need to add more of EVERYTHING—
Bigger loaves are making you happier; it seems the only thing to do is to start doubling, or even tripling the overall recipe. You’ll need the bigger bucket (the 9 or 10 quart), and the storage space to deal with it. Otherwise you have to just make dough more often. Jeff
I’m going to be trying the rye bread soon and I’m wondering about all the rye additives KAF sells. I’m thinking about their Deli Rye Flavor. Do you recommend adding it to your rye and how much would you use per batch?
Felice: I haven’t used the flavoring additives that KAF sells, but generally they distribute nice products. I have to admit, though, I’m a bit of a purist about these things and it wouldn’t occur to me to add these. Seems like more expense and complexity for what I’m guessing is relatively low benefit. If you find otherwise, please let me know! Jeff
Hello again,
Just made the rye and it was out of this world, now I know why that drove your quest Jeff! Have a new bucket in the fridge already.
I also successfully made a double loaf of buttermilk per a few comments back, and could I do the same for the 100% whole wheat, and use about 2 lb dough and increase the baking time 30%?
We like the taller loaves.
Also, if I did a l1b of it the stone, would that be a 35 minute bake time or longer?
Finally I want to throw in some white whole wheat into the buttermilk bread, do you have recommendations for that?
I did successfully swap some wheat bran for flour in that, but trying to hide the whole grains in the whiter bread.
Thanks again, and 3 months since I got your book and still loving it and baking almost every day! I am very much looking forward to your whole grains book!
Mandy
Mandy: Thanks Mandy, this is great, I’m so pleased you’ve had a good experience with the rye. Do you mean putting buttermilk in the 100% WW? I think it should work, but beware of over-density. You might need a couple tablespoons of vital wheat gluten.
You have a typo and I’m not sure what you meant about your 35-minute question. But in general, our recipes will tolerate whole grain substitution up to about 50% of the flour, but then you need to increase the liquids by about a 1/4-cup to a 1/2-cup.
I hope I haven’t confused the issues! Jeff
Sorry for the confusion,
I wanted to make the buttermilk bread with white whole wheat.
The other question was how long to bake the 100% whole wheat bread as a 1lb loaf on the stone.
Thanks!
OK!
White whole wheat is generally interchangeable with regular whole wheat (WW) in our recipes. You can try buttermilk with part whole wheat breads but I haven’t experimented with this myself. As you probably already know, if you use more than about a cup or two of WW in our basic recipe, you need to increase the liquids by about 1/4 to 1/2 cup, depending on how much WW you actually tried. Start with no more than 1/2 WW when you do this… I’ve found that too much WW and dairy lead to a tough loaf. Sugar could be a nice tenderizer (about 2 tablespoons).
Let me know how it turns out!
Jeff
Mandy– about the WW on the stone? Temperature and time may change depending on how much WW, and whether you added honey or significant sugar as a tenderizer. If there’s more than about 1/2 WW, AND you used 1/2 cup honey or sugar, you need to decrease the temp to 350 and bake for longer (40-45 min). If you keep the WW low (1 to 1 1/2 cups) and don’t sweeten you can continue to bake at high temp (450) for 30 minutes.
Depending on what you’re doing, may take some experimentation. Jeff
I thought I would share this with you and those that read your blog. We just got back from a family reunion in the Smoky Mountains of Tennessee. There were 10 of us in a house for a week. I made bread 3 times. All I could find to mix the dough in was a large plastic bowl. I used newspaper for a lid. My baking stone was a small cookie sheet, 12″X14″. I baked 4 loaves at a time on that small cookie sheet. My first 8 loaves were made using unbleached bread flour. The shoppers in the family did not follow directions and bought the wrong thing. I did not have a 1/2 cup measuring cup nor did I have a liquid measuring cup. I used 1 pkg of yeast for each batch. Even with all those variations from your recipe the bread was a huge success. Four loaves were consumed at each dinner. Every time I said should I make more bread, I got a resounding YES! Thank you! Our family loves your bread and I love making it.
Barbara, I love your story, thank you for sharing it. The most gratifying bread moments in my family are in similar circumstances… we travel with friends or family to some remote location, then slap together bread with whatever’s available and everyone devours it.
Hearing that other families are doing the same thing is the most gratifying part of this project. Jeff
Have you tried making any bread loaves on a gas grill. We love having a loaf for dinner over winter, but now I hate to heat up the kitchen with the oven over summer. We grill constantly and I wondered if you have any suggestions how to go about this. I already make pizza on my grill. I’m willing to try anything once to keep my house cooler at this time of year.