Q&A MISC. Bread Questions
Until we can figure out a more sophisticated way to handle your feedback, your praise and your questions, we hope the following series of Q&A posts will help. Our goal is to get a conversation going about a particular topic in one location. Hoping that it will be easier for you to follow and get the information you need to bake gorgeous bread.
If we haven’t started a thread on the subject you are interested in then leave it here and we can create another post!
Thank you so much for all of the conversation. We enjoy it immensely and are learning so much from you all!
Zoë and Jeff
Daryl: You’re going to be a little happier with the smaller pan, because with the larger loaves, you’re working against the possibility of the gummy center. Better to use the smaller, and check for doneness (by color and crust firmness) a little earlier.
Two loaves in the oven at once can mean a slightly longer baking time, but not always. Depends on the size of the loaves and the size of the oven. In a large-capacity oven with two small loaves, you won’t notice much difference. If the loaves are large and your oven small, you may need 10 to 20% more baking time. Keep the temperature the same.
Beth: Thanks for the pancake idea! Jeff
Jeff and Zoe: Question about the deli rye. One of our favorites! With each loaf baked from the same batch of dough, the bread rises less and less each time. Have you found this to be true? Why do you think this is happening? I’ve also talked to my sister-in-law and she has had the same results. Flatter loaf with each baking. Help?! Thanks! Lu
Lu: I haven’t had this experience, so let’s try to figure out what’s happening.
First, a question. Is the bread becoming denser, or just flatter? In other words, is it spreading sideways but still “rising” in terms of gas expansion? If it’s spreading sideways but is not dense, it sounds like you just need to do a little more “gluten cloaking” to rein in sideways spread (see page 28). If that’s not the explanation…
…I wonder if your particular flour is mixing up a little wet (be sure you’re using unbleached all-purpose). Why don’t you try about 2 tablespoons extra white flour next time? If that doesn’t help and you’re still having the problem, try 4 T.
But don’t increase flour at all until you’ve decided whether it’s a cloaking problem. Jeff
I have a convection oven. Should I adjust the temperature and baking times for your free-form bread recipes?
Or would you recommend NOT using a convection oven?
I will wait for your reply before attempting my first loaf. Thanks!
Hi Mindy,
Convection heat is great for our recipe but you do need to reduce the temperature by about 20 degrees and make sure to check it after about 20 minutes. If the front is coloring but the back is still light, rotate the loaf and continue baking. Be sure to watch the first loaf until you get a hang of the oven.
Here is some more info:
https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=67
Thanks and enjoy the bread.
This is actually for a friend of mine. He is married to a Finnish lady and here in the South he is trying to find some “dark rye bread” I’ve seen photos and it is likened to the color of pumpernickel but is indeed a rye. So my question are these,
1. Are you familiar with Finish or Russian type of Dark Rye Bread and where could we order it online?
2. Do you know of a good recipe that I could share with him that would be even better than buying it? (that is the reward of making it instead of purchasing it)
Thanks you
Sincerely
Matthew
Matthew: Depends on who you talk to! Some recipes will say that these breads are to be made with dark rye flour (or even pumpernickel flour), which are rye flours that are very high in bran and tend to be coarsely ground (more so for pumpernickel). But to get really dark Russian-style pumpernickel, we used caramel coloring (which also adds bitterness), molasses, coffee, and cocoa. Rather than forcing our readers to get another kind of rye, we used ordinary supermarket rye (which tends to be a fairly dark rye in the first place). That recipe’s on page 67 of our book (it’s not a recipe we’ve made available on the web). Finnish rye recipes seem to have a lot of butter and other dairy products compared with Russian ryes and we don’t have a recipe for one of those in our book.
The few breads I’ve ordered online arrived stale and couldn’t be revived by warming in the oven, so I don’t recommend them!
Jeff
I’ve seen a lot of mention of adding Lecithin to bread dough, in particular to make it rise a little higher and stay fresh a little longer. Do you have any experience and advice with adding this?
Thank you for all the help you give all of us!
Daryl: Lecithin is naturally present in egg yolks, so if you make one of our enriched doughs, you’re already using it. Lecithin, when added to bread recipes, tends to soften the crumb (interior). It’s also said to extend the shelf life of baked loaves. Since I always try to make what my family can consume in the first day, we don’t worry about shelf life. I haven’t heard that it promotes a higher rise.
I haven’t tested this ingredient myself (we’ve tried to keep our recipes simpler, with fewer ingredients). But, I have read that the recommended amount to add to recipes is 1 tablespoon (granular or liquid version) per 3 cups of flour in the recipe. Let us konw if you think it’s worthwhile. Jeff
Hi Daryl,
I have read that lecithin helps to distribute the water in the dough and therefore promotes gluten development. I too have never used it in breads but I know its effects in chocolate and other pastries.
I’ve read that the granular form is easier to use!
please do let us know how it goes.
Zoë
I am getting ready to mix up the dough for the Oat Flour Bread, pg. 104. Is the water amount correct? It calls for 3 1/4 cups lukewarm water, not the usual 3 cups. I made the Oat Flour by putting regular oats in a food processor. Love your book and really enjoy the website. Thanks for both.
Barbara: that oat flour absorbs a lot of water, so I found that you needed a little more. If it looks a little too loose, you may need to adjust, but try it as written the first time. Jeff
Jeff, Thanks for getting back to me. Can I make the Oat Flour Bread free form or must it be made in a loaf pan? When I mixed up the dough I did not realize that the recipe called for baking in a loaf pan. I do not own a non stick loaf pan.
Thanks,
Barbara
No, it really doesn’t matter. Follow directions for the light whole wheat and it should come out fine. Jeff
Jeff, I finally got around to making the Oat Flour Bread, pg.104. Followed the recipe except I shaped it like a Boule. It was awesome! My husband said that it is his favorite bread so far. I have made the basic boule, European Peasant Bread and Deli Style Rye. Can’t wait to make another loaf. It is addicting. Thanks for all of your help.
I would like to make the olive bread, but am confused as to how to shape it into the usual ball after the dough has been pressed flat, sprinkled with olives and rolled up. Do I tuck the ends into each other to make a ball (as the Sundried Tomato bread recipe instructs the reader to do), or is there another way to make a boule shape? Please elaborate. Thanks for your help!
Hi Zoe and Jeff,
I purchased your book about 10 days ago. It is the fifth book dedicated to breads and baking that I own but the first to actually convince me to attempt yeast breads. I’m inspired and totally immersed! My question is: Where do I find the recommended 9″ x 4″ x 3″ loaf pans? I’ve done a pretty thorough search but so far am unsuccessful. I’ve just made the entire batch of the lovely buttermilk bread and the cinnamon raisin bread and my husband is requesting more. It turned out beautifully but I think the results would be better with the 9x4x3″ pan. My loaf pans are both 9x 5 1/2″ x 3″ which makes for a shorter, wider loaf. Can you give a source for the pans?
Thanks so much for your efforts and your inspiration.
Sincerely,
Penny King
Hi Hannah,
Yes, you are exactly right. I roll the dough up into a log and then fold the ends under to create a ball. The trick is to start rolling from the short end of the rectangle so that your log isn’t too long. If it is you will end up with an oval loaf, which is lovely as well.
Thanks and enjoy the bread!
Zoë
Hi Penny,
My pans are nothing special, in fact some of them don’t even have a brand name on them. I’m sure I picked them up at the local grocery store when I was in college! I have many different size loaf pans that I use, depending on the size loaf I want.
My rule of thumb is to fill the pan about 3/4 of the way full. This is slightly more than we call for in the book, but I like a nice tall loaf for sandwiches. If the pan is larger than 9″x4″x3″ I just increase both the resting time and the baking times. This will somewhat depend on the type of bread you are baking.
For the buttermilk bread I would increase the rest time by about 25+ minutes for the larger pan and increase the baking by about 12+.
I have also been baking mini loaves and in that case I decrease the resting and baking times.
In other words your pans will probably serve you well if you just increase the amount of dough and then adjust the times.
I hope this helps and enjoy the bread!
Zoë
Has anyone tried feeding the dough similar to feeding a starter?
I tried adding dough to some left over dough similar to using a starter. This worked great. Only problem was too wet, I’ll use less water next time.
My next experiment is to just replentish what I remove. I was thinking 1 1/2+ cups of flour and 3/4 cup water and <1 tsp salt for every pound of dough used.
Any thoughts on this approach?
Tony: We do this all the time; see page 31 (lazy sourdough shortcut). I haven’t tested it as precisely as you are working! I just leave about a cup (or so) of old dough at the bottom of the bucket and mix the new stuff right on top of it. The moisture is always right because what’s in the bucket is about the same hydration as what I’m adding.
But you’re suggesting letting the larger mass of dough be the old stuff, and replenish it with new. That should work as well, but is a bit more involved. The hydration level you’re proposing is a touch drier than our standard recipe, but you’re probably noticing that the older dough feels looser and wetter because of by-products of fermentation. I think you’re on the right track.
We considered putting these sorts of processes into the book, but decided against it. Great fun, but probably a bit involved for new bread-bakers. Jeff
Thanks Jeff, I’ll let you know how it goes.
I finally had a chance to do a little experimenting with the lecithin. I made 2 half batches of the master recipe, one with a tablespoon and a half of lecithin in it. It was let sit a day and made into 4 loaves of bread, 2 with and 2 without. 2 loaves were set aside in plastic bags and two were cut in to immediately. Since this is only one test, I’m not sure if I’d get the same results every time, but I think there’s a very slight improvement with the lecithin. The lecithin dough had a bit stronger ferment and the risen dough was slightly looser. After a day in the frig, the lecithin also had bigger holes in it. The outer appearance of the cooked loaves looked alike, but there were slightly bigger holes in the lecithin dough. Also, there’s a slightly better, in my opinion, flavor to the lecithin dough, but it’s hard to describe the difference. To be honest, it’s more the lack of a slight bitterness I guess I’d call it that I never noticed in the no lecithin bread. However, it’s a slight difference. In terms of the bread lasting better, the lecithin again came out slightly ahead. When I cut into the loaves from the bag 3 days later, they were both getting slightly old, but the lecithin loaf was a little bit moister, and was quite a bit better after a few seconds in the microwave to warm up a slice. So, at least with this experiment, I’d say there was an improvement with the lecithin, but it was small enough that I wouldn’t think that it would matter to a lot of people. Since I picked up a bag of it, and considering how little gets used in a batch, I’ll definitely keep using it and see if the slight improvement is there all the time.
I just wanted to compliment you on the wonderful recipes in your book. I’m on my third batch of dough, every loaf and pizza crust has been near perfect. Today I wasn’t thinking too clearly, and I set the oven for 550 (which I use for pizza) to bake my bread, and baked it for 33 minutes as I usually do. It came out pretty dark, and I thought at the time I had left it in to long because I used only about 12oz of bread. It wasn’t until I was looking at some of the messages here that I realized I had the temperature wayyyyy too high today. While the crust was dark, the bread was still perfectly fine as usual. The dough is very forgiving.
Hi Verena,
Other than the crust being too dark and not as thin and crisp, the bread will do fine at that temperature. Because the dough is so wet it can tolerate high temperatures better.
So glad you are enjoying the book and all the bread you are baking!
Zoë
Daryl: Sounds like a slight improvement, but not dramatic. We’ll probably experiment with it for book 2… I’m of two minds about this. I always want to improve our stuff, but I also want to keep it as simple as possible. Stay tuned. Jeff
Your recipes have changed and renewed me! I have baked bread for years, but in the past 5-10 years the proliferation of bakeries producing crusty, European-like bread made readily available breads I loved more than my own. Only my challah was outstanding to me. Your recipes have allowed me to make and share the kind of bread I adore. How amusing to me that your challah recipe is nearly identical to the one I had arrived at after years of experimenting — but the texture and overall experience using your method is better on that account too!
My question: I don’t see other posts addressing how to handle the dough after a piece has been pinched off. Does one punch down and quickly reshape the remaining dough so that it is even again? Also, should the remaining dough be covered in plastic wrap or “cloaked”in flour again to prevent a thick unbaked dough crust from forming?
I will appreciate your answer, as will my whole neighborhood who have been benefiting from my nearly daily baking again!
Joy
Joy: Good question, and one we’ve never addressed. In order to prevent the cut surface from getting dry and leathery, I gently push down any stray dough that’s worked its way up the sides of the container. I use wet fingers for that. But don’t punch down the dough, that knocks the precious air out of the remainder, air which we’ll need for rising and oven spring as the dough ages.
Don’t use flour on the surface before you put it back in the fridge; I’d think that would be drying. The covered bucket will be adequate to prevent a crust from forming; I don’t use plastic wrap.
I am having great fun trying your recipes. The bread is amazing but slicing has become an issue. What do you recommend I use for a bread knife? I have gone online and learned that bread knives are very hard to sharpen. Consequently, some people say that one should buy cheap serrated knives and throw them away when they get dull. What type of knife, brand, etc. do you use? Your comments would be appreciated.
Barbara
I just re-read your comment regarding oven temperature when baking successive loaves of bread — I have only tried that once and it happened that my baking stone broke during the baking of the second loaf. Now I am afraid to bake two in a row. Do you think the breakage could have been related to putting a second loaf on the stone? I did wait about 20 minutes after removing the first loaf for the oven to up to temp.
Barbara: I have a very high-quality bread knife from Hoffritz, and it’s lasted 20 years and is razor sharp. There’s one guy in the Minneapolis-St. Paul area (can’t remember his name or the business) who says he can safely sharpen serrated knives, and I brought mine to him once. I think he did a good job because I’ve never had the urge to sharpen it again.
Di: I can’t imagine that baking a second time would be the culprit. What kind of stone is it? If you’re really going to be doing a lot of baking on a stone, you might want the consider one with a warranty against breakage (Williams-Sonoma is the only one I know of with that warranty). Jeff
The baking stone was from Pampered Chef, but I have had it for many years. I used it very rarely until the last 2 months or so when I began to use it almost every day, thanks to you book, and I have mainly just been keeping it in the oven now. Maybe they just get old??
Could be. But… my Williams-Sonoma one is 15 years old and still going. If it cracks they say they’ll take it back.
I LOVE the book. Of course, all I have done is read so far. I have boule mixed and plan on baking it up this weekend. I have a question, though, regarding the corn meal. I am allergic to corn and I have found, now that I have stopped eating corn, my body reacts more to other corn products like syrup, meal, flour…Is there something else I can use for the pizza peel? Thanks for the great book and I am looking forward to the next already.
Hi Amanda,
Thanks so much for trying the recipes in the book. You can replace the cornmeal with rice flour or use a sheet of parchment paper under the dough. If you use the parchment you will have less clean up after. Just rest the dough on the parchment and slide the whole thing onto your preheated pizza stone. About 5 minutes before the bread is finished baking peel the parchment off and continue baking to crisp up the bottom crust a bit more.
Thanks, Zoë
Can you bake more that one loaf at a time on the stone?
Hi Cindy,
I’ve beaked several loaves at a time on the stone. You want to just make sure they are not too close to each other or they will join up.
You may need to bake the loaves for several minutes more than the recipe suggests. Check if they done by the deep brown color of the crust. I also rotate the loaves at the end of the baking so that the ones in front end up in the back where they will color better.
Enjoy all the bread!
Zoë
Hello again,
still baking my way through the book, and still loving it.
I wanted to know if you could use the 100% whole wheat dough to make pita. And, if I wanted to make four small ones, do you divide the boule shape with a bench scrapper and proceed from there?
And, If I were baking the 100% whole wheat as a free form on the stone how much less time does it bake?
Thanks again!
Mandy
Mandy: I’ve made a flatbread that’s something like pita with the 100% WW, but it usually doesn’t puff. Bake it on the stone after rolling it out at 350 F, not 500 like the white pita— the baking time will be longer than white pita and will depend on how thinly you were able to roll it out. Figure about 10 minutes or so. After baking, cool it in a towel and slit it with a knife to use for sandwiches. Jeff
Thank you, I tried it and loved the pitas!
Mandy
Excellent. Look for more of this kind of bread in our second book. We’re working on it, as they say. Jeff
Would someone PLEASE advise this old man on the subject of yeast and the quantity thereof.
Regarding the master recipe on page 26, comment was added as to being easily Doubled or Halved.
Does the yeast remain the same quantity or is it adjusted ?
Am sorry if this was asked or it sounds like I don’t have a clue as to what am doing BUT seriously, I get confused when it comes to adjusting ingredients in a recipe. What is a good guide line in such matters such as this?
Thank You
Hi Walter,
It is a great question actually. We intended for you to increase all of the ingredients when doubling the recipe.
Have fun and please let us know if you have any more questions!
Zoë
Thanks for the WW pita info. I have made some whole wheat pita and it did not puff as much as I had hoped. Now I have the desire to go back and make it with a master recipe dough to see if I get a better puff.
Thanks,
Ethan
Yeah, 100% WW isn’t known for its puffability. You can try a higher temp, but watch for burning.
The Master Recipe will work perfectly though. Jeff
Montreal Bagels (pg. 129): Diastatic or non-Diastatic malt powder?
Hi Phil,
I use the non-diastic malt powder, which is available at King Arthur Flour. https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/detail.jsp?id=3995
Thanks for the great question!
Zoë
today I made a batch of ciabatta
following the recipe from bread makers apprentice. While it came out very well, it had so many steps to making the loaf. Is there a way to make a ciabatta
from your recipe?
Hi Laura,
We have a recipe for it on page 37. Let me know if you have any questions.
Thanks and enjoy! Zoë
Hi, Jeff and Zoe,
I love your book. I already made the épis several times and also tried your recipe with sourdough (it worked fine but I like the taste with yeast better, I don’t know why, as I am really a sourdough person), anyway I have one comment/question and one comment/suggestion.
First the question re: the European Peasant Bread (p. 46). I mixed the dough a week ago and baked my first loaf this morning. I was very surprised to see that the dough was extremely wet, to the point that it was impossible to shape it. I could pour it but not make it into a ball. I add to add flour to be able to give it a form. It worked and the resulting loaf was excellent: very airy crumb and crunch/chewy crust. I wish I could post pics to show you. But the remaining dough is so wet that I am thinking adding some flour to it and remixing it before storing it again.
What do you think? I was using tap water and King Arthur flours (which is what I always use in my baking).
Now the comment/suggestion: in your new book (the one you are still working on), could you please give the recipes both in American measurements and in metrics. It will help sell the book in the UK and since it will be more precise, it will make for more even results, I think. Just my grain of salt!