Q&A MISC. Bread Questions
Until we can figure out a more sophisticated way to handle your feedback, your praise and your questions, we hope the following series of Q&A posts will help. Our goal is to get a conversation going about a particular topic in one location. Hoping that it will be easier for you to follow and get the information you need to bake gorgeous bread.
If we haven’t started a thread on the subject you are interested in then leave it here and we can create another post!
Thank you so much for all of the conversation. We enjoy it immensely and are learning so much from you all!
Zoë and Jeff
Jean: Sounds like you’re already onto this, because you’re doing pizza on the grill. In our book (page 140), we give detailed instructions on how to use your baking stone on the grill, with especially good results with flatbreads. Although a gas grill (I’m assuming you’re not using charcoal) doesn’t have a thermostat, you can get a fairly constant temperature by fiddling with the burner controls; the stone helps even things out. Once you get the hang of temperature control, you can use the covered gas grill just like you use the oven.
But for my money, the pizza method directly on the grill’s grates is the best for summer. I’ve been doing much more than pizzas— you can do pita and a host of related flatbreads right on the stone. Try using your pizza method with a garlic-oil-herb brushed flatbread and you will have a dinner bread (that isn’t pizza) that will be the envy of your July 4 party. Speaking of which, look for my post on this in the next day or two. I’ll try to cover all the questions about outdoor bread prep. Jeff
Jeff, I’ve never put my stone on the gas grill. I’m afraid it would break from the flame right underneath it. I have one of those Weber’s that the flames go lengthwise of the grill, not a burner on either side. Makes it difficult to do indirect cooking. Will a flame crack the stone? That’s my big question. It was too expensive to just try it.
Jean
Jean: I’ve been using the same Williams and Sonoma 14 by 16-inch baking stone (1/2-inch thick) since 1997. For the past three years, I’ve been putting it on my Weber Genesis Silver-A gas grill, right on the grates, and it does not crack (this is the stone that’s lifetime guaranteed against cracking). My Weber is set up exactly as you describe, where the stone can’t avoid the flames. My stone costs $35, so you have a point. All I can say is that this stone has not broken under these conditions (don’t put it on there wet because the steam expansion can create a lot of pressure inside the stone, which would promote cracking). My guess is that cheaper stones (or thinner ones) might very well crack, so I wouldn’t do it with those. It’s a calculated risk– I can’t promise that you won’t lose the stone. But that’s the advantage of the Williams-Sonoma. If it ever cracks, back it goes. Jeff
I love the way the 6-qt. food storage container works to make and store the dough, except that when the dough is almost gone I would like to transfer it to something smaller that takes less room in the refrigerator, especially if I plan to start another variety or two of bread…does it harm the dough to dump it all into another smaller container? I don’t want to let all the rising gases out of it but it does take up a lot of refrigerator space.
Hi lady Di,
Just be gentle and it is fine to transfer the dough.
Zoë
Great book–I’ve just started with it and this blog has answered most of my questions.
I have a milk allergy–I know the milk is there to make the bread more tender–is soymilk a useful alternative, or should I use something else?
Likewise for butter–can I switch in a neutral flavored oil tablespoon for tablespoon?
Hi Jeff and Zoe!
I’ve been reading through your blog archives. You two are both so gracious to answer all our questions!!
What a great book you’ve written! I made my very first loaf of oven-made bread, ever, last night, and it was a success! I’ve always been intimidated by the kneading involved in bread making as well as the time commitment, so this was perfect!
I’ve picked up some tips reading through the site that I’m really looking forward to trying, especially the fridge over-night rise, and the parchment for the first part of the baking process (my loaf was rather misshapen after I scraped it onto the stone.) I can’t wait to get old-hat at this so I can bake bread for my family on a regular basis!
I mistakenly poured my flour for measuring, so I definitely ended up with too-wet dough. Luckily, it turned out wonderful tasting, but was on the flatter side and hard to work with. Is there any way to fix the remaining 3 loaves of dough I’ve got left, or should I just accept my wet dough this time around and measure the correct way next time?
Susan G: Definitely go ahead and substitute oil for the butter, but don’t expect the same flavor– this is especially true in the brioches.
Soy milk may work; it’s worth a try (but we haven’t tested it). Please let us know how it comes out.
Jeff
Jenne: Definitely go ahead and work more flour into the dough, until it’s the right consistency. That never causes a probelm.
I tried the Oatmeal Bread over the weekend, using soymilk and it was delicious!
I haven’t had a chance to buy a non-stick pan, so I baked it as a boule–what temperature should I have used? The recipe said 350 degrees, but one of your comments here said you need the blast of 450 degrees for oven spring. I split the difference but ended up making time and temperature adjustments along the way. How do you determine the right time and temp?
BTW, next time I’d like to use honey rather than maple syrup–can I just switch them one-to-one?
Susan: We specified 350F in the pan because it’s hard to get a heavy loaf like this one done in the center if you bake quickly. Plus, it’s a sweetened bread. When you made a smaller (I assume) freeform, you can get away with the higher temp. The risk is that the outside will get done too quickly (overbrowning) before the middle is cooked through. See page 19 for general guidelines on baking times but be aware that “wetter dough” should not have been on the list that appears on that page.
You should be able to swap honey for the maple syrup w/o any trouble. Jeff
Hi Y’all! I just purchased your book after reading several blogs that raved about your recipes. I can’t wait to get baking.
I have a quick question regarding yeast (because I’ve always only used the instant packages). I purchased Fleischmans Instant Dry Yeast in bulk and I’m wondering if I am to measure that differently than the yeast you recommend in the book.
Thanks Jackie! It doesn’t make any difference whether you use “regular granulated yeast”, or “instant dry yeast,” as you’re considering. The only difference will be that you may get to your full rise a little sooner, but we can’t detect a taste difference. Jeff
malt powder?
i was just at my local health food store and picked up a bag of barley/corn malt powder. can i use this in the garnary bread? is it diff from the non-diastic malt poweder does anyone know? does the corn part matter?
thanks,
mari
o dear. sorry about all the typos above…
Mari: It is definitely worth a try, though I haven’t tried corn malt. As for diastatic versus non-diastatic, in small amounts (like this recipe), it’s not going to make a difference so don’t worry about it.
Diastatic barley malt contains an enzyme that converts starch to sugar and thereby jumpstarts yeast activity (not harmful, but not particularly neccesary for long-stored dough). If you use too much diastatic malt, it breaks down too much starch into small-molecule sugar, which has less structure and results in gummy dough.
Let me know what you find.
Jeff
I am a complete novice at baking. Period. Tonight I made my first batch of bread, followed the basic recipe. I am curious about a few things, and can’t seem to find any conclusive agreement on the posts to date. My loaf did not rise very much while “proofing” (waiting 40 minutes before baking). But the loaf itself did not rise much at all during baking (this ‘spring rise’ phenomenon). I had cut the recipe in half, and used about half the amount of dough for the first loaf. The finished product was ~ 6″ across (max). The crust was lovely, but the interior was a bit undercooked, and the spaces quite small. Can the amount of yeast be off? I can’t even begin to guess if my dough was wet or dry since I have never made dough before (scary yes). So, I have a small loaf, with small airholes, and gummy interior. I feel like that means I undercooked the loaf (gummy) and my dough was too dry (small holes) .. but I don’t get the reason why the overall loaves are so small, unless that is what size is expected from a ~1Lb chunk of dough. The taste is great and I must admit it was pretty amazing to eat my own bread…bakers amaze me! Any suggestions for improvement are welcomed. Thanks for helping me overcome my baking phobia!
Karen: Thanks for being persistent with it, we will get it the way you want. First off, check out our post on this subject at: https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=141
Yeast breads rise in two ways: after shaping, they rise on the counter (proofing). Then, when they hit the hot stone (are you using a stone?), the sudden heat expands the bubble-size (like heating a gas-filled balloon); that’s called “oven-spring.” Compared to traditional bread, our method gets relatively more of its “rise” from oven spring, so people are sometimes surprised to see that there isn’t all that much rising on the counter before it goes in the oven.
But you’re still not getting the result you want. The most common reason for the result you’re getting is over-handling. Don’t punch down your dough in the bucket, and try to shape your loaves in under 30 seconds. The less handling, the less you knock stored gas out of the dough.
Second, let the formed loaves sit on the counter for longer than we say… go an hour or an hour and 20 minutes and see what you think.
Are you using unbleached all-purpose flour? That’s the protein level we optimized our water content for.
Let us know how you make out!
So, my basic boule dough is an hour into rising, and I’m suspecting I’m light on flour. (I halved the recipe, and think I left out 1/2 cup). I’m thinking I should make it in a loaf pan just in case I dodn’t have enough flour, but am wondering if there are any other remediation steps I could take when I form the loaves. (I don’t actually expect this immediate an answer but figure I’ll give it a shot!)
Thanks,
Jessica
Hi Jessica,
You can add the 1/2 cup of flour to the dough now and allow it to rise again with no harm to the dough.
If you don’t add the flour now then you will be working with a very wet dough and your instinct to bake it in a loaf pan is a good one. Once the dough is chilled allow it to rest in the loaf pan until about room temperature and then bake as directed in the book.
You can also make very successful flat breads with a wet dough, either in the oven or on the grill as Jeff illustrated in his latest post.
Please let us know how it goes!
Zoë
Hi Zoë and Jeff:
First time I’ve made the Oatmeal Bread. Two days in a row. It’s too moist inside. I baked first loaf for about 50 mins. Today’s loaf, I left in for 60+. I could not get an internal temp to go 200 in the loaf. The outside of today’s loaf definitely deeper gold than first loaf. Why is the bread so wet inside? I used 1% milk, as I didn’t have any whole milk on hand, could this simple substitution be the variable? Oh – also – my oven temp is ok, every other loaf has cooked beautifully in the last week. HELP?! Please 🙂
Hi Lu,
How long did you let it rest in the loaf pan before baking? It sounds like the dough was still too dense when it went in the oven and this can be taken care of by letting it sit at room temperature for a bit longer.
Let me know if this sounds like it may help?
Zoë
Hi Zoë, I let it sit for the amount stated in the recipe: 1 hour and 20 mins. So you think even longer than this? Maybe just because it’s summer and humidity is higher? Although today here in Chi-town, it is not humid at all???? Hmmm. So you don’t think the 1% milk was a “no-no”? Thanks for your help with this. Lu
Wow! Wow! Wow! I first heard about your master recipe on national public radio last fall. On my maternity leave this spring I gave it a whirl, and I have been raving about your recipe ever since! I recently bought the book and have begun testing many of the tasty recipes. Tonight I made the Brioche Filled with Chocolate Ganache…oh…my…God!!! The directions say to cool completely before slicing. That’s just cruel! After waiting through the rest time and bake time, there was NO WAY I was going to wait for the loaf to cool! The result??? A slightly burned finger, but a very happy tummy! Well worth it! Of course, we saved part of the loaf to try once it has cooled! Since purchasing this book, my kitchen has been transformed into a baking heaven! After reading these posts, I think my next batch will have to be the oatmeal bread. Thank you for the amazing book and for taking the time to respond to the questions that people have posted. All of the advice has been fantastic!
Jayme: Wow yourself, thank you, these are the kind of comments that make working on this book so much fun.
About cooling… the only reason we say to let it cool is because some of the bread (less so the brioche) can be gummy if you cut them when hot. If you’re not bothered by that, go for it!
Jeff
Hi Lu,
I don’t think the 1% milk will have a great effect on the bread, it should be just fine. The oatmeal bread is a much denser dough and therefore to get a nice crumb, especially when baking in a loaf pan you can let the dough rise longer. The times we put in the book for resting are based on the minimum time required. If you are getting a dense crumb, or one that is not fully baked, then I would increase the rise by about 30+ minutes and see if that improves the loaf.
This is true of the whole grain breads in general. If you let the dough rest until it feels room temperature and a bit wobbly then you know you are good to go.
Thanks Lu!
Zoë
I USE A CONVECTION OVEN….HOW DOES THIS EFFECT THE LOAF? SHOULD I CHANGE BAKING TIMES?
I JUST GOT MY BOOK AND AND I AM STILL LEARING. I LOVE THE BREAD.
DAN
Hi Dan: Convection works great, with improved browning and crispness. You generally need to decrease the temperature by 25 degrees F., but be sure to check the oven temp with a thermometer as we recommend in the book. Baking time should be the same if the oven temp is matching the setting. Jeff
My husband walked into the kitchen the other day, and saw my bread dough and noted that it looked a lot like Loukoumades dough.
(Loukoumades are often served at Greek festivals, but sometimes we make them at home, too. They are made from a very thin, unenriched yeast dough – water, flour, yeast and salt, and the batter is about the thickness of pancacke or muffin batter. The dough is dropped into oil and fried – each piece being about the same size as a golf ball when done. Then they are tossed with a syrup and lightly sprinkled with powdered sugar or cinnamon. If you can’t picture them, you might want to google an image of them, as they are very delicious-looking!)
I’m thinking that in contrast beignets are made from a thicker, enriched dough, and rather sweet and cakey- whereas Loukoumades are made from a thin version of basic bread dough, and all the sweetening comes from the syrup. The powdered sugar is optional, and more of a garnish than an ingredient.
I don’t know if the dough is versatile enough for any other recipes, or what options are available – but I thought maybe you’d want to experiment with including a Loukoumades recipe in your next book. The Greek-food lovers of the world will thank you!
Anna: I’ve had the advantage of seeing YOUR picture of the Loukoumades in your e-mail, and they’re beautiful, sorry you don’t have a website.
I’m going to ask Zoe to comment too…
Jeff
hi jeff-
ok i’m back. will try the granary bread with the corn/barley malt powder BUT,
i’ve have been looking for maltex or maltomeal here in the metrowest burbs of boston as a substitute for the malted barley flakes without much success (i do see it on amazon.com). any suggestions on what else can i use as a substitute? what about something like crushed grapenut style wheat and barley cereal?i also have some wheatabix – could i crush the cereal biscuit up and use that (has barley malt extract…)?
yes, i am midly obsessed with this …
Hi Anna,
The Loukoumades sound very familiar to things I’ve made with the enriched dough. I love the idea of starting with a lean dough and having the richness and sweetness come from the syrup. I just recently made a simple syrup with lavender flowers and drizzled it on a pound cake. I think it would work really well with the Loukoumades.
Thanks for the idea! Zoë
ps: i also have barley flakes kicking around…
😉
Zoë, Thanks for the further tip on the oatmeal bread and its resting stage. I have enough batter left for one more loaf and I will give your suggestion “a whirl”. I’ll let you know.
Merci,
Lu 🙂
Mari: OK, what you’re going for is the flavor of malt, not neccesarily the barley itself. “Malting” occurs inside a grain seed when it sprouts and some of the starch in the seed converts to sugar. It’s going to taste different if it comes from barley, wheat, or corn. English granary-style bread depends on the flavor of barley and wheat malt.
It’s really not looking good for finding wheat malt anymore, so I’d favor a mixture of barley malt sugar, available as a powder or syrup, plus some coarse grain product like you’re suggesting. Or, you can order it from England. If you’re interested, I can find the post I did on this, somewhere… Jeff
… as I’ve now corrected above, I meant to say:
“… barley malt sugar, available as a powder or SYRUP…”
Syrup, not sugar (which would be the powder).
Wanted to circle back – I used my too-wet boule dough for pizza crust – actually went straight from fridge to pizza peel, topped & right into the oven…is that what you’d suggest? It worked fabulously! That was SO easy! Thank you!
-Jessica
Yep, there’s no need for rest or rising time with pizza. Just get it flat and get it in the oven or onto the grill (check out https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=237), just as you’re doing. Sounds like the result was great. Thanks, Jeff
Hi, I am wondering if the dough must be stored in a plastic container as you instruct in the book or if I might successfully use a metal bowl with a towel over it? Thank you, Maya
Hi Maya,
You will be fine using the bowl, but I would use plastic wrap in place of the towel. The dough is so wet it may stick to the towel.
Enjoy and keep in touch when you bake your bread.
Zoë
I love your book – I’ve made the basic recipe, the deli rye and the brioche – all are wonderful! Yesterday I made 2 loaves of the brioche with chocolate ganache (I may eat one entire loaf by myself – it is that good) and I was wondering about storing them. Can I freeze one loaf? Are they ok to sit on the counter? I have them wrapped in plastic wrap because it just didn’t seem right to leave them on the counter uncovered, although I do follow your advice of leaving the loaves out, cut side down, on the other types of bread.
Also, when I try to use the ‘subscribe’ link on the website, it comes up as source code instead of a webpage. Any suggestions?
And one more question – in earlier posts I saw that Jeff mentions videos on the website. There is no video tab on the web page I see. Are they not available anymore?
Thanks for a great book and all the advice!
Diane
Hi Diane: First, about your technical questions:
When I hit “Subscribe,” everything is working, suggesting a local problem for your computer. Are you allowing “cookies?” Then, about seeing our TV and video appearances, click on the “Media” tab from our homepage or right here: https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?page_id=63
Then, about the bread: if you’ve made more than you can eat that day, you can definitely freeze the finished loaves, just wrap them well in something airtight and use within a couple of weeks (before they pick up freezer smells).
For counter storage, whatever you do, they’re going to be stale within 12 hours. For the enriched breads, it’s OK to use a plastic bag because you’re not protecting a crisp crust (which softens in plastic), and covering it this way prevents drying. See what you think, and consider only baking what you can use right away. By pre-mixing, you can spontaneously make more when you need it.
Jeff
hi there! i love your book and think it’s so great of you both to take so much time to follow up on all of our questions!
i have a couple of questions- i tried to read all the comments above so as not to be redundant, but i didn’t really see the answers to these. so i apologize if i’m asking questions that have already been addressed (there’s a lot up there!)
i started out making the master dough recipe, and moved on to the european peasant. i definitely have found that when i go to take a chunk out of the bucket for one loaf, it just breaks off and i don’t need to even cut it. does this mean it’s too dry? or is this fine?
then, when i bake the loaves they always come out sort of flat and saucer-like, with some cracking on the bottom. i’m not sure if this is from putting too much cornmeal on the pizza peel, but i was having problems with the dough sticking on the peel, so i increased the amount of cornmeal and solved that problem. the bread tastes great and seems to have an good interior texture and structure (it’s not gummy or undercooked at all), but i doesn’t seem to rise as well as the master recipe. i tried to do the gluten cloaking a bit more to make the dough into more of a ball shape so it wouldn’t get too flat, but that hasn’t seemed to make a difference.
thanks!
The peasant loaf has a fair amount of whole grains which replace some of the gluten-rich white flour. That results in a dough with less “dough-strength,” the ability of the dough to have it’s gluten developed through cloaking, and resist spreading sideways. So this loaf is more prone to sideways spread than the white freeforms. It won’t show as much rise, but since you say the crumb is nice, it must be expanding (but sideways).
The first thing I would have suggested is more cloaking, but you’ve done that! It could be a technique thing, have a look at our video again (see Media tab on the home page and look at Jenny Pinkley’s video from the Star Tribune).
Consider doing it in a loaf pan? Or consider cutting the whole wheat and rye in half and replace wiht an equal amount of white and see what you think (it won’t be quite as healthy a loaf).
Also, don’t worry about cracking on the bottom– I get that. Likewise if it’s just breaking off when you pull out, that happens with whole grain dough. Jeff
jeff- wow! thanks for such a speedy reply. upon further investigation, i think the inside of the bread is a bit dense. definitely not gummy, but maybe not as light as it should be? i will try try doing even more cloaking next time. i wouldn’t really want to increase the white flour, since that’s the whole reason i moved on from the master recipe to this one.
i’ll keep trying. i just mixed up a batch of the light whole wheat this morning, so i’ll see how that one goes. thanks again!
OK, if it’s too dense, check out our entry on the subject at https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=141. Let me know what you think… Jeff
I don’t have the book yet, but that is because I just got done handling an auto accident. My co-worker and friend is looking for a good pizza dough recipe. Is your’s posted on the site?
Hi Matthew,
We don’t have any recipes from the book on the site, but some are widely available on the internet. Here is one from an article in the Minneapolis Star Tribune that can be used for pizza dough.
Sorry about the accident, I hope your co-worker is making the pizza for you!
https://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/taste/recipes/12149731.html
Zoë
Hi again…
wondering if your next book will include any sprouted wheat flours loaves?
Any suggestions on replacing it in current recipes?
I don’t have any experience with it but wanted to try.
Thanks as ever for your answers to my questions.
still baking here!
Mandy
Mandy: I haven’t seen sprouted wheat flours in my natural foods coop, so they’re not on my radar screen. Should they be? Do you have any ideas on the health angle for these? Jeff