Q&A MISC. Bread Questions
Until we can figure out a more sophisticated way to handle your feedback, your praise and your questions, we hope the following series of Q&A posts will help. Our goal is to get a conversation going about a particular topic in one location. Hoping that it will be easier for you to follow and get the information you need to bake gorgeous bread.
If we haven’t started a thread on the subject you are interested in then leave it here and we can create another post!
Thank you so much for all of the conversation. We enjoy it immensely and are learning so much from you all!
Zoë and Jeff
hi, my first batch of the basic dough came out perfectly (as did the loaves of bread). my second batch…well, it smells like beer and it won’t form a gluten mask, instead it shreds. And doesn’t really rise either. Do you know what I did wrong? I don’t want to make this mistake again!
thanks, Maya
Maya: Something must be different. Did you:
— use different flour?
— leave it out on the counter for way too long in a very warm place?
— replace the white flour with lots of whole grains without making an adjustment?
— add vinegar as some recipes suggest?
The beer smell, plus the “shredding” you describe makes me think of over-fermentation. Stored too warm or too long would be at the top of my list. Look forward to working this out with you. Jeff
well, I did forget about it during it’s initial rising on the counter. I don’t think it was overly warm (not on top of the stove or anything). I did not make any adjustments to the recipe or use different flour (well, it was a new bag, but the same brand/kind I always use). I guess I just left it out too long. I’ll try again.
Thanks, Maya
p.s. I made the challah dough and sticky buns and they were amazing and beautiful!
I think that’s it. Some people leave it out overnight and still like it, others find that’s just got too much fermentation by-product. I think that’s your answer. I don’t think it was the flour.
Glad to hear you’re liking the challah and brioche stuff. Check out my new post, using the brioche dough to make a rustic fruit tart https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=267. Jeff
Last night, I made a “Mexican Pizza” with the basic dough. (I am sure that Mexico proper has no Mexican pizza, but this is a typical American adaptation of another culture’s food) I set the oven to preheat to 500, and meanwhile stretched and patted a ball of dough to a pizza crust size, and put it directly on my pizza pan. Then I spread it with refried beans, and topped it with cheddar cheese, and immediately baked it for about 10 minutes, till the cheese was golden. I didn’t wait for it to rest or rise, and it seemed to turn out great. After baking, I served it with optional topping ingredients – shredded lettuce, diced tomato, sour cream, and salsa. (I’m vegetarian, but I’m sure this would also lend itself to a Mexican-style meat topping). It was very yummy, and dinner was on the table in less than 1/2 hour!
Thought others might enjoy trying this.
Sounds great. I never let pizza rise either… think doughs generally don’t need it. Jeff
Hi Jeff & Zoe,
Greetings from Islamabad, Pakistan; we are here stationed since one year with the Canadian foreign service. We found out that the local bread (not meaning Nan etc.) but the one baked by some imitation bakeries leaves a lot to be desired and has a “sweet” taste, so – rarely having baked bread before – Susan and I started our experiments; ordered books, read extensively websites to no great success, then thru an article in Lifehacker we found out about the No Knead Bread and from a forum associated to it your ABI5! – Thanks, thanks, what a joy, we ordered the book 3 months ago, we are going though the recipes and each one we tried we are successful, even the pastries, the Brioche; excellent… what a taste; thanks again – we are spreading the word around about the magic you have created and so much look forward to your second book.
Good luck and congrats,
Stefan & Susan
Stefan/Susan: It’s really fun to get this info from overseas and hear that people are trying our stuff with flours and ingredients that we don’t get in North America. I’m very curious how you make out creating your own versions of Central Asian specialties, so please keep in touch.
Thank you so much! Hope that our new book (similar but focusing on whole grains, vegetables, and other healthy ingredients) will be out by Christmas 2008. Jeff
Jeff thanks,
It’s really a challenge as far as the ingredients are concerned; yeast is local – granulated – we found it to be excellent. Flour we use Gold Medal All Purpose but we have only the bleached type; no problem though we didn’t have to adjust the quantities. Whole wheat flour we use the local one, quite strong and not bad, rye flour we find with difficulty so we buy a few kilos whenever we venture to Abu Dhabi (UAE). A lot of other ingredients we find locally or import as we go along. Pizza Peel was a challenge; as someone else in the blogs said, I never heard what a pizza peel was, so we had one made by a carpenter in Rawalpindi! Hmmm, smaller than normal, served its purpose for some time but then I ordered one from SuperPeel, good stuff no problem with sticky doughs. People looked at us quite strangely when the parcel arrived at the Mission, what do these people do with a huge wooden shovel?
Anyhow, challenge or otherwise it is a great pleasure to wake up at 5, prepare a dough and have great tasting bread warm by 07:00, the pain d’epi is the epitome of all btw for me. I have all the pics in the web if you are interested; our history of bread baking I will post the link.
Compliments from us,
Stefan & Susan
Hi Stefan & Susan,
We would absolutely love to see your pictures. Your experience with the bread is a unique one, to say the least! I’d love a picture of your pizza peel as well.
Thanks so much for being in touch.
Zoë
There you go Zoe:
https://gallery.me.com/stefan.bert#100034
it’s from the beginning of the NoKB to the recent pita (some others are unrelated) – you will see the Rawalpindi peel as well (dark colored),
I did not upload the Brioches yet; I should – the “tete” did not protrude as much as it should though!
We are trying – with great joy!
S & S
Great pictures Stefan, thank you for sharing them!
Thanks Jeff,
The last of the dough in the bucket (before our holidays) was used this morning for a Focaccia with Onion & Rosemary. A great recipe, fantastic taste..one to be repeated for sure.
Compliments again,
S & S
Hi S&S,
Fantastic photos, thank you so much for sharing them with us! Your epi looks wonderful, as do all the loaves and the ham too!
Thanks again! Zoë
I was wondering as fellow Twin Cities people if you have any stores you can recommend around here to find 6 to 8 qt buckets? I’ve found a good source for buckets on the internet but I’m showing a half dozen friends how to make the bread this weekend and I’m trying to find somewhere I can point them to if they get fired up enough to get started right away. I haven’t had much luck finding big enough containers at places like Target and don’t know much about any restaurant supply stores in the area.
Thanks!
Hi Daryl,
I know that Cooks or Crocus Hill has the cambro buckets, people have mentioned finding buckets at Costco and I recently picked up a great bucket at the wine and beer brewing store in St Louis Park. There are also some larger 8-12 quart buckets at Storables in Edina.
Thanks, Zoë
Thanks a lot. That’ll give me places to point them to. I’m even close enough to the St. Louis Park brewing store to take a field trip if people feel the need.
Thanks!
Daryl
I’ve used many recipes in your book, and they’ve turned out great. But I’d like to try to bake rolls in a 12-count stone muffin pan. What is the best procedure for doing this? Do I need to preheat the muffin pan, or can I drop the dough in it when it is cold and then bake with it? I’m trying to prevent burning myself with a hot stone.
Also, my parchment paper box says the paper is good to 400 degrees, but your recipes call for 450. Can I safely use it at 450, or are there some papers that will take 450 degrees?
Thank you!
Sandy: I think you should probably pre-heat the stone muffin pan, though I’ll admit I’ve never used one. But not if it’s awkward and you’re worried about burning yourself! Just try it cold first.
About parchment: I use “If You Care” brand parchment, and it’s rated “oven-proof” to 450 degrees F. You should probably abide by your parchment’s labeling and bake at the lower temp, with a longer baking time. If you’re not crazy about the result, then switch to a higher-rated parchment. Jeff
I have recently had delivery of your book (I live in England) and am a very big fan! I have only attempted the Master recipe – I need to work up the courage to try the next step!
Just a suggestion – Is there any way you can post pictures of the book recipes in one section of the website? I know there are pictures here and there however, it would be useful to have a picture with caption to each bread it refers to. I am one of those that cooks with their eyes (unfortunately) and would love to see ‘the finished product’ of all of the recipes so I know what I will eventually acheive!
Thanks for all of the hard work! I look forward to keeping up with the website.
Hi there. I’m in the UK and I have a fan oven which tends to cook things quite quickly. I’ve made two loaves so far which have a great crust and open texture, but are a bit flat, like ciabatta! I’m wondering if I need to adjust the temperature somewhat (so far I’ve tried cranking it right up to 240ish C or having it a bit lower, say 225). Next time I’m going to do the measuring thing by weight, as cups really aren’t familiar to me. I also used bread flour (12.5% protein).
Do you have any suggestions as to how I can make by bread rise? I really want to make this work!
Ashley: Welcome to the site, thanks so much for trying our book (with its US measures; our apologies!).
Zoe and I have been astounded at the degree to which the modern book-publishing industry depends on the Internet for promotion, and in particular, the use of photographs. So we spend a good deal of our time photographing bread and putting it on this website. The expectations for quality are very high; the shots have to be near-professional quality, though our shots never approach the level of our book’s photographer, Mark Luinenburg.
But it ends up being very, very time-consuming for us. So, very gradually, we are adding pictures to the website, but it isn’t terribly well-indexed and we’ll probably never have as many pictures as you’d like to see. We could do simple snapshots but that just wouldn’t cut it in the current market for food photography. See http://www.foodgawker.com, http://www.tastespotting.com, or http://www.fpdaily.net to see what I mean. We submit pictures to all three of those sites to help introduce people all over the world to our website. The pictures that are accepted are very high-quality.
So we’re working on it! Poke around the site and see what you think. Jeff
Lesley: It’s so nice to get all this traffic today from the UK. I was in Gloucestershire last summer with my family and found and absolutely delicous bread flour in Stow-on-the-Wold. It was also about 12.5% protein, and as you’ve noticed, that will throw off our recipes, which were tested with all-purpose U.S. flour (about 10% protein). In general, you need more water with higher-protein flours, in this case, I’d estimate about a quarter cup more for the basic recipe. Protein absorbs water and yields a drier, firmer dough that doesn’t store well in the fridge. Unless you adjust the water, and then it works beautifully.
Once that’s adjusted, it sounds like you’re getting a nice result but the shape isn’t great. Have you seen the video where we shape the basic loaf? Best to do it quickly (30 seconds or so); don’t overhandle: https://www.startribune.com/video/11967361.html
Also, when you say “fan oven” I’m assuming you mean a convection oven, which works nicely with our method. Usually we say that you have to decrease the temperature slightly under convection (25 degrees F or about 12 degrees C, as you’re considering). That might improve the result too.
Jeff
Thanks for your quick reply Jeff. I’m so glad you had a nice time in Gloucestershire – I think you probably bought the Shipton Mill range of flour, which I use myself sometimes.
I think my quantities were a bit off but it’s hard to tell as my measuring in the cups was a bit haphazard to say the least! The dough isn’t dry though – if anything it’s very wet. And the taste of my ciabatta boule is good, and the texture is very holey and a bit glossy. It’s just the oven spring I need to work on. I am finding the shaping a bit hard but will carry on working on it and let you know the outcome.
Thanks again.
Lesley
Oh, and lots of people have fan (convection) ovens in the UK, which is worth considering if you do a UK version of the book. I do have the option of switching it off – maybe I’ll try that and see if it works!
Lesley: I don’t think switching off the convection will help— I like the convection result. It almost sounds like your dough is too wet, maybe increase the flour a bit?
It definitely was Shipton Mills flour, and if I could get my hands on some in Minneapolis, I’d use it in a heartbeat. It was the flavor that was extraordinary! Jeff
Hi Jeff and Zoe,
since I bought your book in last winter I bake all our bread myself. Any other make-your-own-bread technique proofed to be too complicated for day to day baking.
But, believe it or not, you can make it even MORE SIMPLE!!
First, how much time takes it to wash your hands after making dough and to clean the counter after forming the loaf?
For making dough I use Vinyl gloves. Pretty simple but it took me 5 months unitl I had the idea, you don´t need to wash your hands for 10 minutes, not to mention the fingernails.
Several time I had trouble forming the loaf and keep it on shape or to put it on the stone because of sticking. Now I put parchment paper in a “rehrückenform” (see Amazon.de for pictures, and it is available in the US) which has a good form to allow oven spring and gives the bread a little support to keep in shape but it does not look like cake springform or a bread loaf form. The dough can rest there as long as you like or even in the fridge overnight. I can send some pictures if you can give me an email-adress, if you like.
You wrote that you are currently working on the second book. Please, please give weights and volumes in a measurable scale (lb/oz and gr/ml) for people outside the US cups are a difficult to handle. I am looking forward to your next ideas, with best wishes from germany
Vesile
I tried the overnight proving in the fridge method last night and my bread definitely rose more. (Unfortunately I forgot about it and it was a bit overcooked, but hey!). But it might be because I think I’ve got the hang of the shaping. I’ve got one batch of dough left, and then I’m going to make another one, measuring by weight this time. Hopefully that will do the trick.
Hi Vesile,
Thank you so much for writing. You have some excellent ideas and as we work on the new book we will absolutely consider them all. We are planning to include weights in the next book. Some of the decisions are up to the publisher, so keep your fingers crossed!
You can send your pictures to [email protected]. I would love to see them.
Thanks you, Zoë
Hi Lesley,
That is great news. It does take a few tries to get used to a new way of handling the dough. So pleased that your loaves are coming out so well!
Zoë
Hi – do you have any suggestions on how to make cinnamon rolls with your basic recipes?
Thanks!
Hi Sandy,
One of the food editors at the Star Tribune had the same idea. Here is the recipe for the Pecan Sticky rolls using the master recipe. You can eliminate the caramel on the bottom and add cinnamon and create your rolls.
https://www.startribune.com/lifestyle/taste/recipes/12149731.html
Enjoy! Zoë
Thank you – I found that recipe in your book and wondered if I could adapt it for cinnamon rolls. Is that all I need to do – just omit the caramel topping? Is there another topping that would work better on cinnamon rolls? I plan to try it this weekend.
By the way – I sent your book to my brother and sister-in-law in KY, and they planned to make your bread and sell it at a farmer’s market. I’ll let you know how it goes!
Hi Sandy,
I would use the butter sugar mixture called for in the sticky bun recipe, but add cinnamon. If you were using the brioche, you could leave the butter out, but with the master recipe, I think it will add a lovely flavor and make them a bit richer.
I’ve used a butter, powdered sugar and milk glaze as a topping for the cinnamon buns. It is very tasty. You can add some vanilla too.
Have fun! Zoë
Thank you!
HI again,I asked about the sprouted flours b/c supposedly they are easier to digest- since they are sprouted they digest as a vegetable, not a starch. I have yet to try it. The sprouted flour is more expensive… I may try a batch with your method and see how it goes. Anyone have any experience with this?
thanks!
Mandy: I’d be very curious as I haven’t tested these myself. Jeff
Hi:
I am not sure if this has already been addressed, but I have a tendency to make larger loaves, so in order to judge the correct baking time, I have been using an instant read thermometer inserted towards the end of baking, then taking out the bread when it reaches 200-205 degrees. This always results in beautiful crust and interior crumb that is not over or under done. It seems to take a little of the guesswork out of the process for me and I thought the idea might help others. Thanks so much for writing this book. It rocks!
Kasia: Yes, that temperature works nicely for the lean loaves (not enriched). What have you found for the enriched stuff baked at lower temperatures? I tend to go by color, but I’ve found that if you go much past 185 degrees, enriched loaves are dry, especially if there is egg in it– so in general, enrichment means lower internal temperature. Jeff
Hi! I’m wondering about baking on a cookie sheet. I know this is not the ideal method, but couldn’t find specific instructions for baking on a cookie sheet for the Master Recipe. I’m guessing oven temp. and/or time need to be adjusted.
Jen: Baking time and temp are generally the same. You need to grease the cookie sheet well, or use cornmeal to prevent sticking.
In either case, baking on a sheet instead of a stone means that the bottom crust will probably be soft.
If you can take the bread off the cookie sheet for the last quarter of the baking time, and put it on a bare shelf, that will help the bottom crust to crisp up. Jeff
Thanks Jeff. Does the cookie sheet need to be preheated as well? And the broiler tray with water should also be used?
Jen
Since the cookie sheet is of such low mass (usually), the pre-heat isn’t neccesary. Not so if you have one of these cast-iron sheets which I’ve seen… I’d pre-heat that one.
But yes, do use the broiler tray with water (or toss ice cubes into the tray if you like). Jeff
I have seen a few posts that comment about an error page. Can you tell me where I would find this? I just purchased a copy of your book. Thank you.
Hi Nancy,
Thanks for trying out the recipes, we look forward to hearing all about the breads you are making.
Here is the error sheet:
https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?page_id=73
Thanks, Zoë
Hi, can you please help with the following questions about the master recipe?
1) In my initial rise, the dough rose from 2 quart to 5 quart. But the next day, it dropped back down to 2 quart. Is this normal? (I am using the Cambro round food container – the lid seems tight but it does not say airtight. My dough was also a bit wet because I incorrectly used the spoon and scoop method.)
2) Do you think there is any difference between using the French bread pan vs. just the baking stone? If we use the French bread pan, should we put it on top of the baking stone?
Thank you!
Hi Gwen, thanks for the questions:
1. It’s very normal for the dough to shrink back like that (under refrigeration). Don’t be alarmed, you’ll still get good oven spring. Thanks for the tip, we should warn people to be aware of this.
2. I assume you mean the perforated metal French pans; some of our testers say the result is just as crisp as with the stone, so I think it’s a great alternative. Both methods allow moisture to escape from the bottom crust rather than being trapped there (as when you use a cookie sheet); the result is much crisper.
No need for the stone with the French bread pan, but it won’t hurt anything if it’s there and might even out the heat in an electric oven.
Bon apetit!
Jeff
Thank you for your help! It is so nice of you to have this Q&A website!!
Your welcome; come back and tell us how your baguettes come out.
Hi. I’ve just discovered your book and have started making your bread. My only problem is with using American cup measurements – I’m English and we weigh ingredients either in ounces and pounds or grams and kilograms. I’ve bought an American cup measure but how closely should you pack the flour? Should it be loosely packed or do you need to tamp it down? I have been told the former but my dough is still a bit wet. Also, the amount of salt is a bit too much for British tastes so have reduced it by half.