Q&A MISC. Bread Questions
Until we can figure out a more sophisticated way to handle your feedback, your praise and your questions, we hope the following series of Q&A posts will help. Our goal is to get a conversation going about a particular topic in one location. Hoping that it will be easier for you to follow and get the information you need to bake gorgeous bread.
If we haven’t started a thread on the subject you are interested in then leave it here and we can create another post!
Thank you so much for all of the conversation. We enjoy it immensely and are learning so much from you all!
Zoë and Jeff
Great… check out https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142 for more on whole grain breads and ways to optimize them. Jeff
Iryna: I’m not sure what you mean when you say it’s not rising. Do you mean the result is dense, with little hole structure? Or is it spreading sideways?
About the lack of browning or “singing,” it sounds like your oven is too cool. Can you check with an oven thermometer? Jeff
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for replying. What I mean by ‘not rising’ is that after all of the initial rise and the time in the fridge, that grapefruit-size bread kinda stays that grapefruit size, it does rise just a little up, but still is small. Maybe in the initial raise, I have let the dough raise all it could and it can’t raise any more during resting time? The crumb is not dense, nice holes though.
If it has nice holes and is not dense, that means you’re getting good expansion, it’s just not in the vertical direction! Most of that expansion (in our method) is the result of “oven spring” which is the expansion of gas bubbles in response to oven (and stone) heat.
All that is normal in our method, but you should be able to direct the expansion upwards. Suggestions:
1. Try a loaf pan to contain sideways spread (which is what you’re getting now). Pretty much any of our recipes can be done this way as an alternative.
2. Check your oven temperature with an oven thermometer.
3. Consider doing a little more shaping to create a “gluten-cloak” around the loaf; that prevents sideways spread. See page 28 or the videos at https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?page_id=63
Let us know what happens!
Hi “guys”…. I have a question. It is most noticeable today on my 100% whole wheat loaves I am rising, but I’ve had it happen with other doughs.
This is “it”: When I take a piece of dough out of the bread bucket and flour it, and start to quarter-turn into its appropriate shape, the top keeps coming “off” …that is to say that it is like shedding its top skin to reveal a lower “skin”. Then I continue to pull the dough under to try to shape it and it does it again. Am I explaining this well enough? I can take photos the next time, but maybe you know to what I refer??
Thanks a bunch,
Lu
Hi Jeff,
Got the loaf perfect this time, even heard it “singing” 😉 What I did is fridge-rest and bake at 475. Perfect!
I just pulled a boule out of the oven this afternoon that tasted wonderful with a little fresh rosemary added to the dough…but I am still finding that the texture, although very pleasant and moist and chewy, never gets the really big holes in it that we find in Italian restuarants…What is the key to that? I baked this loaf after a 11-hour refrigerator rise and only handled it about 10-15 seconds to form the loaf before resing the loaf in the refrigerator. The texture seemed about the same as usual. I made the dough yesterday, refrigerated it until evening, formed the loaf before bed, and baked it this moring. Any suggestions? I posted a photo.
Iryna: Eureka! I’m so glad
Lady Di: Have you tried everything at… https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=141
If so, and you want bigger holes, you could try a little vinegar. About a tablespoon in place of a tablespoon of other liquid in the mixture will weaken the gluten strength a little and allow for more bubble expansion.
But… have you tried keeping the dough longer? Like 7 to 14 days? That weakens the gluten structure too. Jeff
I tried to follow the directions exactly regarding the overnight method.I checked the link you gave me before I made the bread and saw that if the dough was older it should be reserved for flatbreads..Maybe I’m misunderstanding the process and the bread will not rise nicely if it has big holes. Is the term ‘oven spring’ the same as the rise?
“Oven spring” is the rise that you get inside the oven. If it rises during its rest on the counter, that’s not oven spring. A greater proportion of our total rise is due to oven spring, compared to the traditional bread-making.
Older dough definitely isn’t just for flatbreads… give that a try and see if you don’t get larger holes. Please let us know what happens. Jeff
I have really been enjoying your book and have finished my first batch (boule) with great success. My question: For some breads, you recommend 9″x 4″ loaf pan. Will 9″ x 5″ or 8 1/2″ x 4 1/2″ work? If not, where can I find the 9″ x 4″?
Thanks, Dana
Hi Dana, welcome to the site. Our stuff works in the other sizes. The larger pan will need to 10% to 25% more baking time. The 8 1/2 x 4 1/2 won’t be all that different… maybe a little more to get done all the way through. See what you think before seeking out the 9x4x3. Jeff
Hi Jeff and Zoë,
Any thoughts on my 12/1/08 question above? Still had the problem today with the wheat bread, “shedding its skin”….
Happy Holidays,
Lu
Lu: So sorry we missed your question.
100% WW dough is a little more challenging to “cloak;” it tends to do exactly what you say. The trick is to stop pulling around to the bottom just before that happens, or just as it’s starting.
100% WW dough is just not that resilient, so it leads to this problem. If you add a bit of vital wheat gluten, that can help with this– see our post at https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142
Thanks, Jeff
Jeff, Thanks for the help on the bread pan. Thought you and Zoe might be interested to know that I mixed some leftover, cooked, steel cut oats into a portion of my boule dough. All I did was wet a reasonable amount of cooked oats, mix this with the dough, then use some extra flour to get the consistency back. I let the loaf rest extra time to make up for the harsher treatment of the bubbles. The oats in the crust did not get hard. It was great.
Still having fun, thanks to you both. -Dana
Excellent story Dana. Don’t tell anyone, but that’s basically the way we develop new recipes. Add what you like, then bring the consistency back to what you learned in the Master Recipe.
Thanks!
Jeff, thanks and no worries that you missed the original query!!!! Cool.
OK, I get it. But very occasionally it does happen with other dough. But usually after it’s been in the frig longer.
Thoughts?
No, I am not trying to play “Stump the Author”!!!!!
Lu 🙂
Hmm. I’m stumped.
No, I think it’s probably somehow related to technique. Maybe be a little less vigorous as you pull the “cloak” down around the ball. And stop just when it starts to feel like it’s getting a little too tight.
That it happens with longer refrigeration makes sense… those by-products of fermentation weaken gluten, take away some of the resiliency.
I think you’ll find a happy medium. Jeff
OK, Jeff, I’ll try the suggestion! Thanks for thinking about this for me. You and Zoë are always so helpful. LU 🙂
I don’t have a question for you at this time. But I needed to tell you both that I just bought your book and I am hooked!!! As a little girl my grandpa owned a grocery store and baked all his own breads. You brought back that warm and amazing feeling that disappeared when he passed on. I am buying this book for Christmas presents for EVERYONE this year. Absolutely genius! Thank you and God bless you both!
Teresa
Thanks for the kind words Teresa, please stop by ANYTIME with questions here! Jeff
Wow, what a book!!! I’ve been making (or attempting) to make quality artisan breads/pizzas for years. You guys have done a great job simplifying this – in our 1st attempt we produced 4 “near perfect” loaves.
My only question is why such a short preheat time; does the lower temp help with oven spring?
Also, the bottom of the loaves don’t seem to develop as nice of a crust as the top/sides. I can only assume that this is due to the extremely short preheat of the stone. Everything I have read, and my past experience tells me that the stone should be located on the lowest shelf and preheat for 45 minutes. Please advise…
John: Welcome to the site! About the short preheat time, we gave 20 minutes as a compromise. Since our book was geared toward beginners, we didn’t want to tell them to preheat for an hour, as some of the semi-professional books do. Yes, it’s true; at 20 minutes the stone isn’t fully up to temperature, and you certainly can go 30 minutes, or even 45 as you suggest. In the book, we talk about strategies to get a great bottom crust despite the short preheat. My favorite is to start the loaf on the bottom shelf on a stone, and finish on an upper shelf right on the rack (no stone) for the last 1/3 of baking.
About oven spring; no, you’ll probably get even more oven spring with the longer preheat. Jeff
Hi,as an avid bread baker for the past 20 years, I was interested in your techniques. For the past several years, I have been making sourdough, artisan style loaves,using cold fermentation techniques and have had great sucess. I have tried your recipes, but still add my sourdough starter to the mix, adjusting the water content, and had excellent results (I am so used to sourdough maintenance that it takes only a few moments for me to refresh and store it again). Basically, I have taken from you the idea of not mixing the dough much, which is a great timesaver. However, I have always read that salt and yeast should never come in direct contact, so I have always added the yeast directly to the flour, mixed it and then added the salt. Can you comment on this? I also find that covering the dough during the rise is necessary to avoid a ‘skin’ on the top. Thanks for your great book!
My Wife and I really enjoy your book. Although we have not read it completly. We have found no mention of convection ovens and whether they will have any effect on the data in your book.
Thank you
Lucy: For the book, I developed a version exactly as you mention and I agree, it works nicely and it is storable so long as you keep it as wet as our Master. It required some judgement and experience, and since our book was intended for beginners, we decided not to include it. But you’ve got it figured out! Terrific.
About yeast and salt never being in direct contact… appears to be a myth passed down by generations of traditional bakers! I’ve ignored that rule all these years and never had a yeast failure.
About the cover during the final rise… our dough is so wet that you can get away without it for small loaves that have a relatively short rest time anyway. We find that the skin on those isn’t enough to prevent a nice rise or oven spring (which is the theory behind why you need the cover).
Jim: About convection– it gives a nice result. Turn down the oven temp by 25 degrees and everything else is the same. Seems to do a very nice crust; you may have to turn the bread around so one side isn’t always facing the fan. And check the convection oven’s temp, my thermostat gets fooled by the convection setting. Jeff
I just wanted to thank you! My son is allergic to milk, eggs, soy, peanuts, and shellfish. Believe it or not, it is extremely hard to find bread without milk ingredients or soy flour. We found exactly one type of bread at our grocery store (a pretty good grocery store), and its plain white bread. This was something we missed, and I wanted him to experience.
Your book has re-opened so many possibilities to us, and let him try so many breads, with a reasonable effort for a mom who works full time.
Thank you so much!!
Tara
Thank you for letting us know, Tara. This is very gratifying to hear. Part of the appeal for me was putting the exact ingredients I wanted into the bread, in my case, organics when they’re available. Organic bread is tough to find, super-expensive, and usually not all that good or fresh.
Come back anytime with questions. Jeff
I’ve just found you, and I’m thrilled. I’ve made hundreds of loaves of traditional bread, so this is just plain fun for me. Wheee!
Here’s my question: My slashes simply spread out while baking, so the finished loaf doesn’t have the cool crevices. I’ve tried cutting shallower/deeper with the same result. I’ve watched your video and I believe I’m cutting the dough correctly. Any idea why it’s raising this way? The bread tastes wonderful despite its non-crevice appearance.
Also, I’m curious why the baguette recipe specifies only a 20 minute rest as opposed to the 40 minute rest for the freeform boule. I followed the directions for the baguette with great results, so I’m only curious.
By the way, I read through ALL of the questions here (whew), and I don’t see anyone with my crevice problem. Makes me feel kind of ridiculous, but I sure learned a lot by reading it!
Welcome Margot, thanks for visiting! I’ll do the easier question first:
Baguettes need a shorter rise because they have a greater surface area relative to their weight. That’s a fance way of saying that they warm up quicker than a thick round loaf Sounds like that’s worked for you.
I’m not sure what’s happening with your slashes. I should say that we don’t always get a crevice… lots of times I only get a wide track that’s lighter in color than the surround. You’re cutting straight down (vertically)? Don’t try to cut at a shallow angle as in traditional artisan baking, our stuff closes back up if you do that (it’s so wet). Jeff
I’m converting your master recipe to metric and bakers percentages and get the following for 4lbs(1814g) of dough (ignoring salt and yeast)
3c water = 24oz = 680g
flour = 1814-680 = 1134
bakers percentage is 60%.
Is this accurate? This does not seem like a wet dough to me since I typically make my sourdough bread at 63% and my sourdough pizza dough at 65%
Thanks,
Eric Friedrichs
Welcome to the site, Eric. I think I see the problem. Your flour conversion is off. 6.5 US cups of flour weighs much less than you specify above. It weighs very close to 2 pounds (5 ounces per cup this time of year), which is approximately 910 grams, not 1134 as you have above. So the Baker’s Percentage for water is 75%, not 60%. Much wetter then.
I think you ran into this because we say that the recipes make about 4 pounds of dough, but many of them are short… this one’s about 3.6 pounds of dough.
Give that a shot. You’ll find you can’t handle the 75% hydration stuff quite the way you handle the 60-65% stuff. Love to hear how you make out, and sorry for the confusion. Jeff
I love your book and want to make better breads than come out of our bread machine. So I’d appreciate your suggestions for two questions I have about the European Peasant Bread.
1. The loaves come out about 2″ high and about 7 to 7 and 1/2″ in diameter. The crust is superb and the bread quite good, but should the bread rise higher than that? If so, how can I get it to be higher? Here in Indiana, winter has set in, and there’s no really warm place for the bread to rise. Is that part of the problem? I tried to put it in an unlit oven, but then had to take it out to preheat prior to baking.
2. The remaining dough stays in the refrig, but the outer edges get very crusty and hard. Should I wet that part or try to toss out those top layers of hard crust of unbaked bread?
Thanks so much for a superb book! The breads wreck our diets…but how does one resist fresh, delicious bread?
Is there anything I need to do differently if I want to bake multiple loaves at once?
Hi there!
I tried your bread recipe mostly just by following the video and had fantastic results! I’d always thought of bread as being too complicated, so I’m super-excited to learn simple and yummy recipes.
I’m still waiting for Amazon to deliver your book, and perhaps this is something you cover in it, but I’m making my 2nd batch of dough now and wondering what the possible axes of experimentation are.
In particular, I know this is a no knead, no punch recipe, but what are the effects of kneading and/or punching? Is it something worth trying at all?
Thanks!
Dan
Mickey: You should be getting more rise than 2″. How about oven temp? Check that first; if it’s off you won’t get proper oven spring. And don’t worry so much about the room temperature, but give a longer resting time after shaping. Try an hour, or even an hour and a half after shaping. Let us know what happens.
Becky: About multiple loaves, it depends on the oven. Really big ones won’t matter at all, but sometimes smaller ovens require a little more time when you do three or more loaves. Go by the loaf’s appearance and firmness.
Dan: If you want to experiment with kneading, make sure you do it BEFORE the initial rise (in the bucket or bowl). If you do it after the initial rise, or at the time of shaping, youi will end up with very dense results that you won’t be happy with. In particular, don’t punch down the dough in the bowl or bucket, just let it collapse on its own. Jeff
Interesting! I might try that for my next batch.
I’m a little confused about the punching, though, I thought punching was specifically meant to be done after the first rise to let gas out and start another fermentation stage?
Punching makes sense only in the traditional method, where you’re using all the dough on the first day. If you punch our stuff down, you’re going to miss all that gas you just dispersed… the loaves will be dense.
It’s very difficult to drop the traditional steps when you transition to our method. But in this case, it’s really important NOT to punch down the dough. Jeff
Thanks for the prompt replies, Jeff! I can’t wait till I get your book delivered so I can try some of the variations.
saw your article in mother earth news – went out and bought the book – wonderful!!! i made the dough for the american style soft white bread – i did substitue 1 cup of whole wheat flour for 1 cup of the unbleached white flour – came out great. i have always made bread the old fashion way – kneading, rising, punch down, rise….. – this is way better. i live in alamogordo, nm, and we are at 4300 ft, but i didn’t seem to have any altitude problems. anyway, just wanted to say thanks for a great book. i look forward to trying more of the recipes.
Thanks Ann! Of course, we love getting these kinds of notes. Please come back anytime you have a question about a recipe. We answer all the questions ourselves. In case you do run into any altitude-related problems (over-rising followed by falling, with dense bread), check out our post on the subject: https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=144 Jeff
Hi Zoe & Jeff.
My wife bought me your book last January and I’ve been making bread that my kids will actually eat ever since.. Thank-you. I bought a few books for holiday gifts this year.
My question is, I saw King Arthur Unbleached WHITE Whole Wheat Flour at the market. Can this be substituted for unbleached all purpose flour? If so, do I use the same measements or do I need to make adjustements? I’m hoping this is a way that I can “sneak” some whole grains into my families’ diet.
Will you be coming out with any follow-up books?
Thanks,
Gary
Hi Zoe and Jeff. I love your book and website.
My second pizza stone just broke. They were not cheap stones. Can you make a couple of recommendations as to where I can purchase a new one? I have looked at Williams-Sonoma. They sell one for about $40. Some people have reported their stone emits “weird odors.” Chefs Catalog also offers stones. My stove is a JennAir, and I do have an oven thermometer. I wondered if rising steam from the broiler tray might have caused the breakage. Thanks!
I made the master recipe with no problems…it looked exactly like it was supposed to, nice and stretchy. So I next tried the challah dough. I made it Saturday, and today, Monday noon, I went to make a braid…and the dough isn’t stretchy at all. It just breaks off. Cloaking it is impossible. I went ahead and rolled it into snakes and braided it…it’s resting now…but any ideas what I might have done wrong?
Bonsoir et merci! Good evening and thank you!
Je viens de déguster la meilleure pizza faite-maison, créée à partir de votre recette-mère qui réside depuis quelques jours dans mon frigo.
I have just eaten the best home-made pizza, created from your master recipe, which has been residing in my fridge for the past few days .
Le pain que j’ai cuit ce matin était sans aucun doute le plus croustillant et avec la mie la plus aérée que j’ai jamais sorti de mon four. Ce soir, il est toujours croustillant, ce qui est un record!
The bread I baked this morning was undoubtedly the crispiest and with the most open crumb that has ever come out of my oven. It is still crispy tonight, which is a record in itself!
Je me suis emballée et j’ai aussi préparé une pâte à brioche…
I got carried away also prepared a brioche dough …
J’ai bataillé pour traduire les mesures en grammes et millilitres et j’avoue avoir utilisé un levain bio commercial, juste pour voir, et heureusement, ça a marché!
I struggled to translate the measurements from cups and spoons to grams and milliliters and I admit to using a commercial dry (organic) starter , just to “fun” and fortunately, it worked!
Fantastic book, fantastic results! Thanks again :))
A bunch of answers in here from above, read on:
Gary: KAF WWW flour works more or less like ordinary WW, not like AP. It absorbs a lot more water, so you can’t just substitute it for AP in our Master Recipe– the result would be too dry to store. This is pretty much the subject of our second book… how to adapt these methods for whole grains. Unfortunately the book’s not out till 12/09, but meanwhile check our post at https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142 for ideas on how to get better results with whole grains. It’s going to take some experimentation.
Kathy, about stones: Unfortunately the stones do break, and I don’t think it’s the steam; I have steam under the stone all the time and my first stone lasted 11 years before breaking. I have Williams-Sonoma 14×16 stone you mention (half-inch thick), and the reason I like it is because it’s lifetime guaranteed-SAVE YOUR RECEIPT–they took it back for exchange with no questions asked. I haven’t found another stone with that warantee, though we’ve had no complaints about the Old Stone brand 14×16 available on Amazon through our website. I’m not smelling anything wierd from my new Williams Sonoma that they gave me in replacement. I too use a Jenn-Air (c.1993), so that’s probably not your problem either. Basically, if W-S is willing to lifetime guarantee something like this, it’s probably going to last.
Margot: If you used butter rather than oil in the challah, it behaves this way. Don’t worry, the result should be OK, but let us know. We should have been clearer about that in the book.
Claire: Thank you so much for writing. I love the web, we can be connected with people all over the world. Thank you for all your kind words in French and in English. Come by again anytime you have questions about the recipes.
Jeff
Oh! I used butter! I’m so relieved it wasn’t my dum. The challah turned out SO YUMMY!
**runs off to make another
Excellent news! That appearance throws me too, because I usually use oil. The butter flavor is sublime, and the texture seems to survive the storage, which was amazing to us when we found it was true.
Enjoy…
Jeff, thanks for your prompt answer about baking stones. I will go with the W-S brand because of the guarantee. In fact, I will keep the receipt in your book!
I’ve been happily baking away from your book for a few months now, but this week an odd thing happened to the basic recipe dough I made: after two days the refrigerated dough turned a pale toasty tan color. The pizza dough stored next to it was fine. I baked up a loaf, which turned out pretty dense, but I’m now accustomed to incredible bread and don’t want this to happen again. What happened?