Q&A MISC. Bread Questions
Until we can figure out a more sophisticated way to handle your feedback, your praise and your questions, we hope the following series of Q&A posts will help. Our goal is to get a conversation going about a particular topic in one location. Hoping that it will be easier for you to follow and get the information you need to bake gorgeous bread.
If we haven’t started a thread on the subject you are interested in then leave it here and we can create another post!
Thank you so much for all of the conversation. We enjoy it immensely and are learning so much from you all!
Zoë and Jeff
I’ve noticed that you use tall buckets to store your dough. I have a squat, rectangle container 12x12x5 and it holds 3 gallons. I love sourdough and am looking forward to letting a double batch work in it. Will the shallowness of the container allow the dough to go “flat” similar to using a wide mouthed glass for champagne as opposed to a flute glass. This will become far more important in the summer, when iced tea takes precedence over freshly baked bread.
Tim: Zoe and I have used both tall and shallow containers without the gas dissipating as you suggest might happen (I’d have thought that would operate but it doesn’t appear to).
Hey, in summer you can keep baking, but on the grill:
https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=267
https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=237
Tib: Sorry to take so long to get back to you, but Zoe and I are a bit stumped by your question. The only thing I can think of is that there was too much air getting into the bucket as the dough aged. But truthfully, that shouldn’t make the loaves dense. Any chance something contaminated the bucket? An odd batch of yeast, flour, or other ingredient? Jeff
I have a question about the panettone. In the book you mention a weight but don’t mention the size pan. Should it be half full like the rest of the pan bread? Thanks in advance.
Hi Beth,
I’ve been making tons of the Panettone these days, it is delicious! So glad you are trying it. I like my loaves to really come up and over the top so I fill the pan about 2/3 of the way full.
Enjoy and happy holiday! Zoë
i love your book and have tried several recipes. Today I embarked on the blueberry, lemon wreath. I’m not sure I understand what to do after making the slices. Is there a photo anywhere of how it should look?
Thanks
Hi Pat,
So glad you are enjoying the breads. Here is a post I did a while ago on my other site: https://zoebakes.com/?p=534
Thanks, Zoë
Hi, love the book but I’m surprised to find not a single multigrain bread recipe. It’s the only kind of bread I eat so I’d like to adapt my recipe to your method. What’s the best way of doing that? (I use 3/4 cup of soaked multigrain cereal per 4 cups of unbleached AP flour.)
Thank you so much!
Gina
Hi, I don’t know if it’s because of my Mac or the browsers I use, but if I click on your “subscribe” tab in Firefox I get an error message, and if I do it in Safari it takes me to your search page, but when I try a search, it doesn’t work.
Thanks for the great book!
Hi Gina, welcome to the site. Our second book, scheduled for release in 12/09, is all about whole grain breads and other super-healthy ingredients. For the time being, I can tell you that you can substitute 5, 9, or 10-grain flour or cereals wherever we call for whole wheat in the loaves where whole wheat is less than 50% of the volume, so what you’re proposing sounds perfect. Beyond that level and you’re going to have to play with vital wheat gluten; see our post on this at https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142
Multi-grain flours and cereals are largely non-wheat and so there’s not much gluten in the dough– they need a little help from VWG if you want to use lots of it.
I just tested our RSS subscribe button, and it’s working fine for Windows XP running Microsoft Internet Explorer. Is anyone else having trouble with Mac OS or with Firefox? Please post here if so.
Another way to follow us is to check out our Twitter feed: https://twitter.com/ArtisanBreadIn5 and you’ll always hear about new posts and recipes, media events, and progress with our second book. Jeff
First I’d like to thank you both so much for making bread baking so easy. I used to be afraid of yeast recipes (that they wouldn’t work) but now I’m hooked!!
I only just discovered you recently so I’ve only made the 4 ingredient bread a couple of times. This last time I noticed the bread came out of the oven with a lovely hard crust but as it cooled the top got soft. I’m wondering what I might be doing wrong? I baked it on parchment paper on a baking stone – I find it too difficult (and sticky) to slide the dough directly onto the stone without the paper. I did leave it on the stone to cool, maybe I should have moved it to a cooling rack? Or is the parchment paper effecting the top? The next day the top was hard again (sorted overnight in paper bag)
Ya know, I’m not complaining because I’m sure this bread would be good stale!! But I was bummed that the top got soft on me. Thank you so much again. I’m hoping I get your book for Christmas so I can try more and different breads 🙂
Thankful to be able to successfully make homemade bread,
Claudia
Claudia: the top crust frequently softens when cool; sometimes if hardens up again if you wait a full two hours after you get it out of the oven– as you saw. The other reason you can have an initially-crisp crust soften is if there’s high humidity in your environment. Less of a problem in the winter.
Generally, we cool our bread off the stone; that may have prevented water vapor from evaporating off the bottom crust and could account for your problem.
Parchment paper should be peeled off 2/3’s of the way through baking (again, to let the bottom crust ventilate). In that sense, yes, the parchment could be affecting the top crust. Jeff
Hi there. We had a “conversation” here back in September about premaking and freezing the pecan rolls. Well, I am here to report that they turned our fabulously. I made the rolls 2 days ahead (with fresh dough per your suggestion) and froze them in the long logs for 2 days. They were easier to store in my freezer and transport this way. The night before, I cut them up, put them in my pan, covered with plastic wrap. They rose a ton in the fridge and I let them rest for about 60-90 minutes in the morning. They turned out great. Thanks!
My current challenge is the 100% Whole Wheat bread. It alsways turns out dry and crumbley and doesn’t seem to rise as much as others. Help! I love WW bread.
Going to try bagels tomorrow morning. Can’t wait. Giving at least 3 copies of your book away for the holidays!
Jodi
Hi, I just made my first batch and I’m not sure I understand the instructions.
After cutting a piece of the cold dough, you say to form it into a ball, then leave it for 40 to 90 minutes (only 20 minutes for a baguette).
But what are the signs that the dough is actually ready for slashing and baking? Doubled in size? Bubbles on the surface? Or…?
I’m asking because my first boule was too dense and as I write this a baguette is sitting on the counter…
Thanks!
Gina
Jodi: Thanks so much for writing, this is great. I’m so glad the recipes are working well for you.
Gina: With our method, don’t expect to see as much rising after shaping as you do with the traditional method. We get more of our lift from “oven spring” (when it hit oven heat, the bubbles expand). Sounds like you’ll like the longer rest time before slashing; since there won’t be all that much visible sign of “readiness,” go by the time and whether the dough feels less dense and no longer is chilly to the touch (it won’t be room temp though, even after 90 min).
Also, you may be over-handling the dough as you shape it. Try to be done with it in less than 30 seconds. If you continue to feel their too dense, try bread flour or add vital wheat gluten, which can be great in whole wheat but some people like it in all their breads:(https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142)
Other suggestions at https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=141
I left the baguette (made from the master recipe) for an hour, then the 20-minute oven heating time, and it turned out well, with nice holes and the oven spring gave it a very good lift.
I find it a bit too chewy already, so bread flour or gluten wouldn’t help.
I can’t wait to try adapting my multigrain recipe to your method!
Thanks.
I love challah and brioche, but I also love my husband who is supposed to be avoiding eggs. Any advice on lightening the eggs in those? I’m wondering if an egg substitute or egg whites with a few yolks would be a wasted effort or comparably satisfying.
Another thank you from an inexperienced baker grappling with food issues — one child is allergic to oats and corn (including corn syrup) and we’ve only found one reliably available wheat loaf at the market that meets our needs. This is much easier, and much more enjoyed by the family, than anything else I’ve tried.
Great, if the holes are doing what you want, that’s all you needed to do. Let us know how your multigrain turns out… we have one coming out in our next book, but that’s not till 12/09! Jeff
Dar: Egg whites are a reasonable substitute but you have to bring the water up a bit (or use more egg whites than whatever number of whole eggs were called for)– the flavor and color obviously won’t be there, so yes, I’m not certain it’s worth it.
You could try vanilla and saffron, which gives the yellow color and a new flavor to signify that this loaf is special.
Great about being able to tune your family’s intake to allergy-avoidance! Jeff
Hello,
I’m in the middle of making my first batch of the master recipe Boule and was curious to know if you would still use the broiler tray & water with a convection oven?
Thanks
Hi Mara,
Yes, you still want the broiler tray and water to create steam. This is what will give you the shiny thin crust that you want. Without the water, you will still get a crisp crust, but it will be dull looking.
Happy baking and enjoy the bread!
Zoë
Thanks for your response. I think I may have buried my request in my follow up about freezing the Pecan rolls (that Zoe responed to back in Sept).
My current challenge is the 100% Whole Wheat bread. It alsways turns out dry and crumbley and doesn’t seem to rise as much as others. Help! I love WW bread.
Thanks
Jodi
Oh, and the bagels turned out great.
I just bought your book, but am having problem. my loaves, (white & rye) are so flat. taste good but I am disappointed. I live in FL during winter, but will be back in NY next spring. I think my water temp should be higher than 100. Help, Peg
Jodi: I think you’ll like the 100% WW if you add some vital wheat gluten to the mix (it may need a little more water when adding VWG). See our post on this at https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142. Go with the higher dose of VWG (2 tsp per cup of dry grain ingredients). Jeff
Peg: I don’t think it’s the water temperature, we’ve been using that temp for a long time with great results. One thing you can do while you’re getting more familiar with the technique is to make your first loaves in a lightly greased, 1-pound non-stick loaf pan. Then the loaf can’t spread sideways, which is what you are getting.
But I know you want free-form loaves to lift vertically and not spread so much sideways. Go through Chapter 4 in the book (Tips and Techniques) and see if you can’t refine your technique so the loaf will be more structured. My guess is that you are not quite correctly “cloaking” the formed loaves. Take a look at our videos on the “Media” tab in our website. Once you get good at the very quick “cloaking” step, I think your free-form loaves will have enough structure to lift vertically rather than spreading sideways.
But if all else fails, you can prepare your batches a little drier and this will probably solve your problem. Increase the flour by a quarter-cup at a time and see if that works. Problem– if you make it too dry, it won’t store well– wet dough stores nicely, but it can spread sideways when it’s resting.
Are you using unbleached flour? Bleached flour doesn’t absorb as much water and will give you overly wet loaves that spread sideways. Let us know how you make out. Jeff
Dear Jeff,
I purchased your book and it is a wonderful read!! My problem is that I won’t be able to get to the store for a few days and I have more King Arthur’s Whole Wheat AP Flour, than Gold Medal Unbleached White Flour. I need most of the white flour to finish making the Thumbrint Cookies.
Can I use 4-5 cups of whole wheat flour and make up the difference with white flour?
Jeff, this book means a lot to me. My Mom passed away in 1994, and I never watched her make bread and rolls when I had the chance. I have a 9 year old granddaughter, and I don’t want to leave here without her knowing how to make bread. That art of making bread from scratch died with my Mom.
My sister and I have been lamenting over this fact for a number of years. She has three daughters and four granddaughters. When I learn how to make this bread, I will drive home to Pittsburgh and teach my sister and her daughters and granddaughters how to make it, too. I’m tearing up right now…..My Mom would be so proud, if we can do this. Thank you for your efforts.
Thanks Toni, this is really touching (more below).
But first, about WW flour: Whole wheat absobs much more water than AP, but so long as you keep the total whole grain content below about 1.5 cups (out of 6.5), you can usually get away with it. Beyond that, and you need to increase the water, and you may need vital wheat gluten to get nice lift with all that heavy whole grain. That’s the subject of our second book (out in 12/09, on whole grains and other healthy ingredients with our method). So you’re really going over the threshold with the recipe you suggest. I bet you’ll need a half cup extra water– your goal is to keep the consistency at the level you’re used to in our recipes… keep it that wet and loose. Check out our post on whole grain breads, and using vital wheat gluten: https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142.
It’s so sweet of you to tell this story. Don’t lament about not getting your Mom’s recipes and methods, I bet she’s smiling about this right now. All of us are products of a culinary culture that doesn’t pass away with any one individual– your Mom was part of that, you’re part of it, I’m part of it, our little book (I hope) is now part of it. The West has been eating wheat bread for about 5,000 years (it’s all over the Bible), so we should be able to re-create her recipes from all the clues left behind in our culture– I bet you’ll be able to do it from your own memory and then make it wet enough to store in the fridge. Hope so, anyway.
Keep warm,
Jeff
Hi Guys–
Thanks to Jeff, I corrected the problem of my dense crumb several months ago, and have been baking happily away on several dough and breads. Well, I am on to brioche. Made one 1/2 batch. The bread tasted good. Crumb not dense, but the crumb was closer to cornbread, and the color was very golden and egg-yolk. I am been using generic unbleached flour and butter. Any thoughts would be really appreciated.
Thanks.
Michele
Hi, you mentioned you were coming out with a new book in 2009? What month is that expected to be released? I love your idea but can’t bring myself to buy your book because all your recipes use all purpose flour. I am trying to ellimate refined white flour from my diet. I only buy it to make play dough for the kids! Are there going to be 100% whole wheat recipes with no white flour in your new book? Could any bread recipe be converted to your method? I weigh my flour. I really want to make 100% whole wheat bread every day. Could I use your master recipe and substitute all whole wheat? How many lbs of WW flour would it be? I know I would have to increase the water, but how much? Thank you for this neat new way of making bread.
Michele: Our brioche is typically very much a golden yellow color, as you say, because of all the egg. So it sounds like what you’re getting is about what we expect. I’m not sure what you mean by “cornbread” texture. We’re getting a tight-crumbed “cakey” texture in ours; very traditional brioche is a little less cakey and you can get that by kneading for a few minutes… I do it BEFORE the bucket-rising step, or you may get a dense crumb.
Jennifer: Our next book, on whole grain breads with our method, is scheduled for publication in 12/09. We’re busy at work trying to adapt the world of white flour to whole wheat, but we’re not quite ready to release recipes on the new book here on our website. But scroll up to my comment at 10:07 AM today and click on the Whole Grain link I gave there… that should help you develop your own recipes in the meantime.
But you really cannot just substitute WW for AP in our recipes; it would be much too dry. What you can do is try the 100% WW recipe in our book (yes, there is one!). If you like, you can try adding a little vital wheat gluten to it as in the comment above. Jeff
I don’t know if this has been asked yet but there are so many Q&A’s I can’t read them all! Anyway my issue has to do with rising. The first batch I made after the initial 2 hour rise, I immediately sliced off a chunk and put it in the oven (skipped the fridge) and it came out perfectly. But ever since then with refrigerated dough I’m not getting a rise… more like a spread and then I end up with a 2 inch tall disc of bread. I’ve tried resting it for 40 minutes and one and half hours and had the same results? Any ideas? Thank you!
Have you ever experimented with using the defrost setting in the microwave to bring the bread to room temp more quickly? I tried it for 2 minutes on basic recipe and had bread on the table 50 minutes after walking in the door. Of course, there was no time to cool but nobody cared. What do you think?
Candice: You should be getting a rise. First question: any chance you are using bleached flour? Not enough protein… more based on your answer.
Paula: Sure, why not! So long as you don’t cook the dough. This requires a very low power setting on the microwave, which you obviously have. Jeff
hi,
I can’t tell you how bummed i am to miss out on a class being offered in Edina, Mn. I see you have one class in Stillwater in January, but no others listed. Will you be teaching in the near future? I hope so!
Is there any way I can use one of your bread recipes to make a good panettone? My family enjoys panettone but it’s labor intensive & time consuming. I don’t have a mixer that can handle bread dough so all kneading must be done by hand. I don’t mind hand kneading; I think it burns calories so I can enjoy more bread. & if this isn’t true please don’t disillusion me! Just don’t want a recipe that I can’t adapt to doing by hand. Although no kneading makes the best use of my time.
BTW, we live on a farm & thus don’t have access to grocery stores which carry esoteric ingredients.
I love your book. My 12 yo daughter is a big fan since now she doesn’t have to help knead.
Thank you both for your book & any help you can provide w/ a delicious but easy panettone.
Julia
RuthAnne: The Cooks of Crocus Hill website is constantly updating new classes so there’ll be more in the future. I’m hoping people are willing to drive out to Stillwater for the Chef’s Gallery class I’m doing there on January 10, the last one there sold out eventually.
Julia: We have a great Pannetone recipe on page 201 in the book, check it out. Our stuff doesn’t require kneading but it can’t hurt so long as you do it before the initial rise (right after mixing the ingredients). The dough is very wet so you need to modify your technique– we don’t want you adding flour during the kneading process so use a wet surface and a dough scraper to pull the dough and fold it onto itself. DON’T ADD FLOUR or the recipes won’t work properly. Jeff
Thanks. I should have gone & checked your book rather than relying on my memory of the recipes it contains. Sorry to have bothered you. Merry Christmas!
Jeff- thanks for getting back to me! I’m definitely using the unbleached because I’m an unbleached flour snob… who wants to eat something bleached?!? Anyway last night I made two loaves. The first one I cloaked a bit more because I searched for “rise” on this page and there’s a Q&A at the top that sounded like an answer to my question so I tried that. And then the next loaf, really for no good reason, I didn’t use any flour after I cut a piece out of the bucket. I just kept my hands wet with warm water and did the cloak sans flour. Results: Extra-cloaked loaf rose a little bit and didn’t spread but came to life in the oven. Un-floured loaf did spread & rise (a tiny bit) but also came to life in the oven, moreso than the first loaf… but I sort of cloaked the heck out of that first one so I’m sure it had a tight flour wrap. Also I let these rest on parchment paper on top of dinner plates that have a well in them with a definitive rimmed side to keep the spreading at bay. Trial & error, right? Again, thanks so much. I’m enjoying the book and bread. Happy Holidays to you, Zoe and your families.
Julia: No bother at all, the real problem is that our site isn’t well-indexed for you to see what’s already been covered. We’ll fix that eventually.
Candice: OK good, it’s not the flour. What you tried (beefing up your cloaking) was going to be my next suggestion! So that’s great. I also was going to refer you to the page of videos but you probably don’t need it: https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?page_id=63. Another way to keep loaves from spreading sideways is to use a banneton, which I’ve posted about: https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=127 Jeff
Jeff, do I have to make the entire recipe? Can I cut it in half and let it sit in the fridge for a few days before I make the first loaf?
Toni: You can always half (or double) our recipes. You can store all our recipes for at least five days, some for as long as 14 days. Jeff
Here’s the latest from this new “5-Minute” addict:
I mixed my first experimental batch of dough on December 12, using the master recipe.
I’ve just baked my fourth and last plain white loaf and this is what I’ve concluded so far:
1. My first loaf was too dense because my dough wasn’t wet enough. I corrected that by spraying a bit of water on top of the dough for a couple of days.
2. Letting the bread rest too long makes it spread sideways and bake into a funny shape (a tapered oval).
3. It’s important to slash deeply or the loaf will crack open on the bottom.
4. It’s important to use enough cornmeal or bran on the peel* so the bread will slide off easily (my third one didn’t, and got deformed a bit).
5. It’s important to place the bread near the end of the peel for resting so it doesn’t have to slide too far.
6. For a baguette, it’s better to slip it onto the stone from the end. If you slip it sideways, it could get deformed.
7. Flavour improves tremendously in depth and complexity with time in the fridge. The batch I made today was six days old, and better by far. It also had more holes and they were bigger. From now on I’m going to mix a new batch when I’m halfway through the previous one.
4, 5 (and possibly 6) are due to the wetness of the dough. I was used to a drier product.
Please tell me: are my conclusions right or not?
Gina
* I’m a recycler so I use a flattened cardboard box
P. S. – This morning, I mixed my first experimental batch of multigrain dough. I will let you know how that turned out.
Thank you for teaching this old dog some new tricks! Old habits are hard to break; I’ve been an artisan bread baker since the Seventies (only we didn’t call it “artisan bread”, then!). I had a restaurant where we made our own French whole wheat bread using Julia Child’s recipe. The bread became so popular I eventually opened a bakery…
Hi, I am interested in if you perfect a gluten free method for the 5 minutes bread? If you have I would love to know how to do this and a recipe for the bread. Thanks.
Gina: Thanks for telling your story. Julia Child’s was the first serious bread I ever made, then I went on to “Beard on Bread,” which is wonderful. About your conclusions:
1. Can’t figure out why your batch would be too dry… we optimized these as wet dough with all-purpose flour. Did you change anything, or use high-protein (bread) flour?
2. Agree. You want to get it into the oven before it spreads sideways (though more vigourous “cloaking” can prevent sideways spread).
3. Agree!
4. Agree. Parchment is another fail-safe option (never sticks).
5. Agree
6. If you use parchment, or plenty of cornmeal or flour on the peel, it doesn’t get deformed. To that end, the baguette can take the shortest rest of any of our breads (20 min). The shorter the rest, the less likely will stick and become deformed.
7. Flavour improvement– YES, that’s the basis of our success! Another way to jump-start on flavor enhancement is to use some old dough in the new batch. Blend it in with the water.
Thanks for your enthusiasm! Jeff
Trudy: We’re saving the gluten-free recipes for our second book, which won’t be out till 12/09. They’re not quite ready for prime-time at the moment.
Short answer though is that it works. Jeff
“Beard on Bread” was also a favourite of mine… but you don’t look old enough for either of these books!
Back to No. 1, believe it or not I didn’t discover until yesterday that my 1-cup measuring cup actually holds an extra 1/4 cup! (So much for cheap imitations.) So of course I was using too much flour. I used to use a scale, so I never thought of calibrating my measuring cups.
Now I’m looking for a new set — any recommendations?
I made a test multigrain bun last night and it was excellent. More about that next week…
Gina
Gina: I’ve found that measuring cups vary in unpredictable ways, so I can’t recommend a particular brand. Weighing’s more consistent, as you know, but most people in the US don’t do it, so we didn’t write the book that way. But if you use two pounds of all-purpose and 1 1/2 pounds of water in our Master Recipe, you are set (75% hydration).
Hi,
I wanted suggestions (or maybe I’m missing it somewhere) on making breadsticks from the dough(s) in your book. I really appreciated the roll recipes you put out for Thanksgiving, and we love this book, but I could use some instruction on types of dough, preparation, cooking time to make breadsticks.
Thanks!
Hi Tara,
Here is a post Jeff did on making breadsticks. https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=31
There is a search button on the website if you scroll all the way to the bottom, its on the left side. This may be helpful if you have specific things you want to find.
Thank you so much and enjoy the breadsticks!
Zoë
BTW there will be a recipe in our new book for breadsticks.
Help. Question about freezing dough: Do I just freeze 1 lb portions and then cloak and shape after defrosting or can I cloak and shape then freeze? I mixed up 3 batches of dough (rye, light wheat and challah) 4 days ago and now I have 2/3 of a bucket of challah that will be five days old tomorrow. BTW – the the challah loaf I baked was wonderful!! I used the leftovers for French Toast – superb! Today I am baking rye to go with homemade split pea soup.Everything I have made so far has been great, we have had nothing by homemade bread for over a month now.(my friends think I am the bread goddess and tell them to buy the book). Also BTW The recipes are very forgiving and I have experimented with additions and substitutions with success. Thanks.