Q&A MISC. Bread Questions
Until we can figure out a more sophisticated way to handle your feedback, your praise and your questions, we hope the following series of Q&A posts will help. Our goal is to get a conversation going about a particular topic in one location. Hoping that it will be easier for you to follow and get the information you need to bake gorgeous bread.
If we haven’t started a thread on the subject you are interested in then leave it here and we can create another post!
Thank you so much for all of the conversation. We enjoy it immensely and are learning so much from you all!
Zoë and Jeff
When you freeze the dough in airtight containers or bags, do you open them to defrost in the fridge, or leave them sealed while they are defrosting?
I may use my FoodSaver – without vacuuming, just sealing the bags, so as not to disturb the gas/air in the dough. The bags will be fairly small and easy to label and store. Do you think that is a good idea?
Jeff, when you said above, to spray with water three times, yes my crusts are dull and hard, do I still need to put the hot water into the broiling pan too, or can I omit that step?
Also, do I spray into the oven, or right onto the dough?
I leave them sealed while defrosting; there really isn’t much gas production after freezing. Love the FoodSaver idea!
You can skip the broiler pan water if you spray. I’ve seen instructions to spray the loaf and also to spray the walls of the oven. Whichever you do, give it 4 or 5 sprays each time, not just one. Jeff
Hello–what might i try doing to the basic recipe times to have the crusts turn out somewhat softer? also, do you have any formula for larger loaf potions, say, twice as large as the 1LB bole?
thanks so much for the book, it is amazing to have fresh bread all the time!
w
Thanks Jeff. Would you recommend vacuuming and sealing with the FoodSaver or just sealing the bag?
Wayne: You can brush the surface with oil or butter to soften the crust, or use an enriched dough from the book in the first place. For larger boules, resting and baking time are increased. Try 1 to 1 1/2 hour rests, and up to one hour of baking time at the same temp or it will be gummy inside for a two or three pounder.
Nina: Just seal the bag is my best guess– vacuuming will expand the bubbles artificially and I bet it won’t like that. Jeff
I need some assistance with browning. I have made four loaves of the master recipe, and all four loaves are now in my rubbish bin.
The dough mixed together very well, and seemed moist. It rose gloriously high in the dough bin, so the yeast is good (and it’s fresh yeast in any case).
I peeled off 1 lb portions and cloaked it until it was smooth and rested it for 40 min. I now see the error page and that I should have waited longer — but I did that in subsequent loaves anyway.
My problem is this. Each of the four loaves raises very little in the oven, has a dense crumb, and worst of all, just don’t brown at all. All four times.
The water hisses when I add it to the pan, but when I open the oven at the end, no steam escapes. I’ve tried additional water, and even when water was left in the plan, no steam escaped.
I get no browning whatsoever, a dense crumb, very little rise, and the bottom crust (against the stone) is severely cracked and swollen.
Thinking I wasn’t getting a blast of heat or that my oven was not true-to-temp, I cranked it all the way to 500 degrees, and no change. Still a “blonde loaf” with no color and no rise.
Can you tell from these details anything obvious that I’m doing wrong? (link goes to my bread section)
P.S. — my oven works just fine on everything I make. It doesn’t have a history of annoying me, or not being hot. I’ve baked beautiful loaves of bread before, so this recipe is just taunting me. Thanks.
Kate: Some ovens vent steam out too well. This means that you need an alternative for creating a humid environment next to the bread. Three alternatives:
1. Spray with water, using a food-grade sprayer. Do it when you put the loaf in the oven, and repeat twice more at 30-second intervals.
2. Bake in a closed iron or other pot, or a clay “cloche.”
3. Cover the loaf with a roomy aluminum foil roasting pan.
One of those should give you better browning.
Further…
1. Test your oven temperature with an oven thermometer. Bread baking, especially the browning component, is much more sensitive to oven temperature discrepancies than other cooking tasks.
2. Be sure you’re using unbleached all-purpose flour.
3. Check out our post on dense crumb https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=141. But my guess, based on what you say above, is that you are getting good expansion with nice hole structure, it’s just that it’s spreading sideways rather than upwards. That means you might benefit from a little more “gluten-cloaking.” See our videos at https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?page_id=63.
4. Go for a longer rest/rise time after shaping. Try 60 to 90 minutes and see what you think. Jeff
I’ve already said it but I don’t think you’ll mind reading it again: this is the best cookbook ever! I often read it before I go to bed at night so I can plan out which new doughs I want to try, and when my mother asked if someone in her office could borrow it, I had to say no because I can’t give it up for that long! I did give her the info she needed to buy her own copy, though. Here’s my question for today: I have had an artisan bread from my local food co-op called polenta bread, that is a sourdough with actual polenta added to it, not dry cornmeal replacing some of the flour. I have made your broa dough, which is as close to the polenta bread as anything else I’ve tried, but not quite the same. I’m going to try experimenting with the broa recipe and mixing up some cornmeal mush/grits/polenta first and then adding it in place of the cornmeal and some of the water. I’ve already experimented a lot with modifying your doughs, and with great success, so I’m not afraid to try another experiment, but I’d love to have your input before I do it. And thanks again for your book–you really have started a revolution! Kathleen
P.S. I want to share how I modified one of your doughs: I am trying to get more whole grains into my boys and also get them to eat breakfast without complaining. I mixed up a batch of buttermilk bread (with yogurt instead of buttermilk, since that’s what I had) and substituted 1 cup of white whole wheat flour for 1 cup of ap, and 1 cup of wheat bran for 1 cup of ap. I rolled up a batch of dough with raisins, brown sugar, and cinnamon, and made no mention of my substitutions when I served them their raisin bread. My next step is to make a plain loaf without the raisins and see what they think of it for sandwiches.
Thanks Jeff. Let me add a few more details (I’ve made and blogged about five test loaves, and all were failures).
I’ve let that dough rest as long as two hours with no change. It was puffy (not hugely so, but not a dense loaf of dough, either) and not cold when it went into the oven.
I do *not* have good expansion with nice holes in the bread — quite the opposite. It’s usually quite dense. Only loaf # 1 had any expansion at all, and that was only a little bit to the side.
I do not otherwise have sideways spread — it doesn’t go up, out, down, or, sideways.
I am using White Lily unbleached AP flour.
My oven temp tested great — it’s on the dot.
As for longer resting times, I’ve let that dough rest as long as two hours. Beyond that, I have to turn off the lights and go to bed!
I do have a covered dutch oven, so are you suggesting I place the dough in that, cover it, and skip the water altogether? How would one go about getting any steam inside the dutch oven? Or, is the trapped steam from the bread itself going to take the place of the pan of water?
Kathleen: Thanks for the all kind words and recipe ideas!
Why don’t you try the polenta dough used in the recipe on page 159? That should fit the bill.
Kate: I think we have an answer… it’s the White Lily flour. It’s a terrific product, but it’s got low protein content. In addition, when I go to White Lily’s website, it looks like the only unbleached AP they sell is also pre-salted and self-rising, with baking soda/powder https://www.whitelily.com/Products/Category.aspx?groupid=93. So that’s too much salt (inhibits yeast). It’s going to yield… a mess, which is what you got.
I think you’ll get a different result if you switch to Gold Medal Unbleached All-Purpose or equivalent. About 10% protein, and no salt or leavening agents.
If you opt for the Dutch oven, yes, the steam is trapped in there from the loaf itself. Preheat the bottom of the pan, use lots of cornmeal or bran on the bottom, and don’t burn yourself! Jeff
Hooorayyy!!!! Thank you for a light at the end of the tunnel. My White Lily flour was a gift to me in a big canister so I don’t have the bag and didn’t even think to go and read about it on the website! Whew!
Another tub to whip up tonight!
You think you’re relieved!! 🙂
White Lily was designed for making super light, super-soft Southern bisquits (not bread). So hopefully that will be it!
Jeff
I’m back and totally appreciated your past advice, my dough is working wonderfully now.
I was wanting to throw some seeds in a multigrain dough and I was wondering if you knew if they would do anything if stored for the normal 2 weeks (or even longer if I add more and just stir together). I’d love to know if you think the seeds require me to use the dough up faster
Thanks,
Marissa
No, I never change the storage time with seeds. Assume you mean a relatively modest addition of seeds, not cups!
I have seen comments by others that they have saved a piece of an old dough and added it to a new batch to get a more sourdough flavor. Can that be done with the enriched doughs too that have eggs or just with the basic doughs?
Hi Catherine,
You can certainly add a piece of the master dough to a batch of enriched dough if you want the “sour” flavor in that batch. However you can not add “old” enriched dough to another batch. Because the enriched doughs have eggs and other dairy we don’t recommend using it beyond the 5 days. You can certainly freeze the left over dough, but don’t add it to another batch.
Thanks! Zoë
Your book is fantastic!! I always have dough in the ‘frig and it is the best!!
However, I’m pretty sure that Margherita pizza has fresh basil on it, not oregano.
I just mixed up my first batch of chocolate dough this morning, and it seems very dense and heavy compared to the other doughs I’ve made, and not as wet. Also, it doesn’t seem to be rising at all, and it’s been sitting at room temp. for a couple of hours. I checked over the steps and I’m pretty sure I didn’t make any measuring mistakes, and I’m using the same kind of flour I’ve used for the other breads. What do you think the problem could be?
Hi Kathleen,
It sounds like your dough is too dry. If you have a stand mixer you can slowly add a 1/4 cup more water using the dough hook. Let it rise again at room temperature and see if that does the trick.
I’ve heard this once before and this adding more water seemed to make a big difference.
Thanks! Zoë
P.S. Just wanted to add–I checked my yeast and the date was good. I can’t think of anything else to check.
I love the book! I want to make cinnamon rolls for my birthday, but I also want to sleep in :). Is there a way I can prepare the cinnamon rolls ahead of time, and freeze them, or keep them refrigerated until baking so I can have my cake and eat it too (oh I mean cinnamon rolls)?
There are a number of ways. The easiest would be to assemble the rolls in the pan and let them rise overnight in the fridge rather than at room temp. Take it out of the fridge while the oven’s pre-heating– 20 or 30 minutes should be OK.
You could also freeze them, and then defrost in the fridge overnight, but then I’d let them rest for the recommended hour at room temp.
Thanks so much Jeff. I’m going to try that. Mmmm, mmm.
Jeff or Zoe~ I just mixed up my first batch of dough after buying your book about 1 week ago. It looks great! I have a couple of questions… I live in a high altitude area and read on another thread here about decreasing the yeast to 1 tablespoon so I went ahead and did that. Dough rose beautifully. My problem is I live in a rural area and don’t want to wait for a baking stone to arrive… I plan on baking bread tomorrow on a cookie sheet and using parchment paper. Should I sprinkle the parchment paper with cornmeal? Also, would I still go ahead and use the steam method? I just can’t wait to make the first batch. My parents grew up in Brooklyn in a Jewish/Italian neighborhood and passed their passion for “crusty” bread on to all of us!! Thanks for the help. Fabulous book!!! Peggy
Welcome to the site Peggy…
First, no need for cornmeal if you’re using parchment. But do use the steam, or other alternative method to get humidity around your loaf (see https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=510).
Your parents’ neighborhood sounds like the one I grew up in (but it was Queens). Jeff
Thanks Jeff. I’m going to make my first loaf today. I let you know how it turns out. We’re at about 5500 feet here so I won’t be too surprised if I have to tinker with it to get it just right. I’ve been telling everyone about your book too!
https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=144, that’s our high-altitude site, so check that out.
Hi again Jeff. You said, “Big loaves can be made free-form; you don’t need a closed iron pot. They just take longer. A three or four pound loaf can take close to an hour (watch it because there are many variables). My small loaves are done closer to 24 minutes are are quite brown. Wouldn’t baking an hour burn them or overbake the outside? Thanks again.
Maureen: Depends on how big you go with these. Sounds like you need to check your oven temp, it may be hotter than billed. Until you check the temp, yes, go by the bread’s color. Sounds like it would burn if you went a whole hour. Jeff
How do I go about making multiple loaves? I know that I can make/shape/rest more than one loaf at a time, but what are the instructions for cooling the stone, steaming, etc. ??
You don’t need to cool the stone between loaves, but 1st choice would be to fit as many loaves as you can onto the stone for one baking session— allow room for them to expand. Steam’s the same.
Thanks for the prompt reply. I received the book as a gift this past week … after 40 years of bread baking, your (Jeff’s & Zoe’s) techniques are a welcome revolution. I’ll still keep my old favorites, but I’m really excited to work my way through your recipes. Very cool!
Thanks John!
What happens if I use milk other than whole milk for the Oatmeal bread. Is 2% OK?
Should be fine, not a significant difference. I usually use skim because we always have more of that in the house.
Skim it is. Thanks!
I am looking forward to your next edition which I hope will include weight measurements. True? When? Thank you very much for your efforts in bringing bread baking to home cooks!
We will have a conversion table, with weights (in US and metric equivalents) so that any recipe in the book can be converted easily.
Hi, baking and gaining my way merrily through life.
I suggest that for future printings, please insert the glossy color photos next to the related recipe in the book. This way, I don’t have to thumb through the entire volume to see whether my loaf looks like the example in the photo.
Since everyone is concerned about the economy lately, and many are trying to reduce spending, I thought I’d put a plug in for how economical this bread is – I think I pay about 33 cents a loaf!
I buy yeast from the warehouse store- two pounds for under $4.
I use a plastic rectangular “shoe box” from the dollar store for a bucket – it holds exactly 6 quarts and stores in the fridge without wasting any space – additionally, the lid fits loosely which allows the dough to breathe.
And I use my non-stick perforated pizza pan for baking instead of a stone and peel.
One can get started making great artisan bread really cheaply, and then add the fancier gourmet items as the budget allows.
Toby: Should be taken care of in the second book, believe it or not, it’s very costly to change this for future printings of the first book!
Anna: Yep… we estimated 40 cents a loaf for the second book.
I have baked with a scale all my life and I wish you had included weights for the master loaf or general metric to pounds
In our next book we’ll have a table with weight conversions for cup-measures of our ingredients that can be applied to each recipe. For the Master in the current book, it’s 1 1/2 pounds of water, 2 pounds of unbleached AP flour. One cup of unbleached AP flour weighs about 5 ounces.
Thanks. I did find the web attachment that gave me pounds and ounces. I am 90 years od and am enjoying a new way to bake.
Got your master recipe from a friend, tried it with incredible success, and immediately bought the book! I am HOOKED! Thank you, thank you…
My question involves scaling. Since I’ve read that the master recipe calls for 2 pounds of flour, could I simply increase everything in the recipe 2.5 times in order to just dump an entire 5 pound bag of flour into the (larger, of course) container, instead of measuring out the flour by cups? That would mean increasing the remaining ingredients to 7.5 cups water, and about a quarter cup each of yeast and salt, if my math is correct (actually 11.25 teaspoons, to be exact). The resulting dough would make 10 boule loaves, which we’d easily use up in the course of two weeks. Would this work? It would make the initial mixing that much quicker with no flour to measure, and would effortlessly ensure the proper proportion of flour to water.
Rebecca: I haven’t double-checked your math, but basing everything on 2 pounds = 6.5 cups of unbleached AP will definitely work.