Q&A MISC. Bread Questions
Until we can figure out a more sophisticated way to handle your feedback, your praise and your questions, we hope the following series of Q&A posts will help. Our goal is to get a conversation going about a particular topic in one location. Hoping that it will be easier for you to follow and get the information you need to bake gorgeous bread.
If we haven’t started a thread on the subject you are interested in then leave it here and we can create another post!
Thank you so much for all of the conversation. We enjoy it immensely and are learning so much from you all!
Zoë and Jeff
PS (I nearly forgot) – when you reprint how about a spiral bind?
Lindy in AZ
Lindy: We’re putting phonetic spellings into our second book, but the publisher isn’t offering us a revised edition opportunity for Book #1. Likewise they’re not planning a spiral-bound– not our decision!
Our recipes call for unbleached, not unenriched. Enriched flour is fine. Your home-ground wheat is unenriched (I’m assuming you’re not enriching it). That will work fine too.
Keep in mind that you can’t just substitute WW for AP flour in our recipes. It absorbs a lot more water. See https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142 for more on this, and using vital wheat gluten to enchance high WW loaves. Jeff
For the basic dough, how long should the rise (on the peel) be if the dough hasn’t yet been refrigerated? The book only says how long presuming it was refrigerated overnight.
Also, can the dough sit out for, say, 4 hours instead of 2?
Thanks. I’ve got a batch of olive rosemary and a batch of pecan raisin (each using the basic recipe) both doing their initial rise right now 🙂
Hi, I love making your bread, and today I made a brioche. I had never had brioche, and I want to make sure I did it the right way, is this bread almost like the consistency of corn bread , this is what it reminded me off. It is very good, I did not know what to expect. Otherwise I have also made the recipe for the Boule, that is awesome bread. Thank you I enjoy your book
Hi, I just wanted to tell you how much I enjoy your book and recipes. I waited a long time on my library’s wait list for the book, and wouldn’t you know it, it became available Christmas week and I got your book as a present instead. Lucky me.
I took your basic peasant bread recipe to Kauai with me a few weeks ago and actually vacuum sealed the rye and whole wheat flours so that I didn’t have to purchase such a small amount when I was there -only 1 week 🙁 I was able to make a loaf of bread, pita bread and a wonderful batch of cinnamon rolls that I proofed overnight – delicious.
I have a question about vital wheat gluten…I purchased some a while back before I got your book hoping that it would make my whole wheat bread rise better. Now that I have all the gluten, can I use it in any of your recipes successfully or just forget about it?
Thanks
Ben: If the dough hasn’t been refrigerated, you may find that you can cut the resting time by 30 to 50% and it still won’t be dense.
Also, the dough’s very forgiving of a longer initial rest– we’ve left it overnight with no ill effects.
Mannick: Brioche is definitely denser than regular bread, but you may find you like the texture more if you give it a longer rest, closer to 2 hours. Cornbread’s a little denser than I’d like my brioche.
If you’d like to get more chewy open texture in the breads, you can add VWG to anything you like, but it’s especially useful for breads high in whole grains. In general you’ll also have to increase the water a bit to compensate for it’s water-absorbing qualities; see https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142
Hi,
I made my first batch of dough yesterday; it rested refrigerated for more than 24 hours.
My problem, now, is that I can’t get past that gluten-cloak step. My dough is sticky, even though I sprinkled flour on it and on my fingers, and it doesn’t keep any shape, it just flattens on its rest plate.
What are my most likely mistakes?
Hiya. I’ve got a question … I adore the ‘keep it til you need it’ method. I love the bread. My rolls and loaves come out wonderfully.
But my family wants square sandwich loaves, too! And every time I’ve tried to bake in a loaf pan, I’ve gotten squashed bricks.
How can I make this bread in a loaf pan?
Fred: Most common explanation we uncover on the website is that people tried it with bleached flour. Doesn’t work; if that’s it, switch to unbleached (you can salvage the mixed dough by working in some flour). Or some low-protein Southern-style flour, like White Lily (results in the same problem).
Meri: You can definitely make the loaves in a pan– see the tips in the Chapter 5 variations. Key is a longer rest time once the loaf is formed– 1.5 to 2.0 hours.
@Jeff: Thanks, I’ll have a look (and maybe buy some flour from a farm nearby). I’m not sure, though, that we have bleached flour in Europe (I’ll have a look, anyway). I’ll also check if I can figure out the proteine level of the flour.
(the brand is ‘Soubry’ and it’s supposed to be adapted for bread machines).
BTW, I used the following measures (using the metric system… I’ll wait for the next version of the book before I buy it instead of borrowing it 🙂 ):
1 tbspoon dry yeast: 12 grams
1 tbspoon salt: 18 grams
1 cup flour: 150 grams
1 cup water: 250 milliliter
Thus, for the master recipe:
3 cups water: 750 ml
1,5 tbspoon yeast: 18 gr
1,5 tbspoon salt: 27 gr
6,5 cups flour: 975 gr
(Just in case I messed this up and it would explain my issue)
Hi Jeff and Zoe,
I got tired of the shaping problems with baguettes. I have a friend who loves baguettes, and I wanted them to be just right. So I bought a double baguette pan. It’s dark, and perforated. How do I use it? Do I just make a thin, long roll on each one? Do I put the pan on the stone, or on the oven shelf? I’d rather cook on the stone, if possible.
Also, I made up a batch of your 100% whole wheat sandwich bread. First of all, I used KA WW flour and weighed it. I really goofed on weights, forgot that whole wheat flour is heavier, used 5oz per cup instead of 4.5oz. I added +1cup water to get the consistency and it rose nicely. Do you think this will work?
Second, can I bake the 100% whole wheat sandwich bread on the stone as an artisan bread? And do you have any suggestions to dress it up–sesame seeds, nuts? OOOH, can I bake them in the baguette pan also?
Thanks so much!
Judy in TN
Hello,
Had a question about the whole wheat sandwich bread recipe. Can I substitute the milk for additional water? I have people in my family who are allergic to milk. Also, if I do this will it keep longer in the fridge?
Thanks,
Rachael
Hi!
I’ve got a question on how long the dough will last in the fridge. Some recipes say 5 days; others say 14. What is it that makes it not last as long? The butter, milk, honey?
I’ve altered the Chris Kimball WW bread by using oil instead of honey, using half ww flour and half white flour and then adding 3T each of millet, bulgur, flax seed and quinoa. I’ve also added the vital wheat gluten. This bread is really good, but can this stay refrigerated longer than 5 days?
thanks, Maggie
Fred: Flour may be low protein, but you’re using a little too much water (due to various rounding errors in your conversion). Our Master Recipe, with white all-purpose flour (about 10% protein) is hydrated at 75%. That means (somewhat non-intuitively for percentage calculation) that the weight of the water is 75% of the weight of the flour Yours is closer to 77% (water weighs one gram per ml). So increase the flour or decrease the water to bring the “hydration” to 75%. Also see if your flour is less than 10% protein, if so, increase the flour some more and you will solve your problem.
Judy: Use the baguette pan exactly as you described above. It doesn’t matter if you use a stone with these, but it’s fine to put the pan right on there. About the 100% WW, so long as the final consistency was right, it should work. And, yes you can bake that dough in a freeform shape right on the stone, or in a baguette pan. May take shorter bake-time than the pan version. Seed or nuts are great, any you like to taste.
Rachel: Water will be fine, but the crumb will be less tender. And should keep longer in the fridge.
Maggie: It’s the eggs and milk (for spoilage purposes), and if there’s other heavy ingredients (which makes it over-dense after a week or so). Since you got rid of the milk in that recipe, there’s really nothing to spoil. It’s the density that will get to be too much. I bet your version could go 7 to 10 days, maybe even 14 for smaller loaves if you’re not finding it too dense.
I’ve tried to look around to see if this question has been answered before, but if it’s there I can’t find it 🙂 I’m wondering about the salt content. I just got your book from the library and have a batch in the fridge, with one loaf made. Normally, I make a very average, normal kind of bread, that we use for sandwiches and toast. The recipe calls for 6 c. flour, 1 1/2 T. yeast, 1 t. salt, 2 c. water, 1/4 c. oil. Although we liked the loaf I made from your book, we did think it tasted salty. I’m wondering if there’s some chemistry going on that needs all that salt or if I can safely decrease the amount and if so, by how much? Thanks!
Aimee: You can decrease the salt, check out https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=139. Basically this was our taste and you can vary according to yours.
@Jeff: I checked, my flour seems to be about slightly over 9% protein (in weight). I guess that, in combination with the incorrect ratio flour/water explains my failure. Can’t wait for attempting a new batch.
Thanks for your kind answer.
Jeff,I saw this post from a while back, I am originally from the Cotswolds, UK and my Dad’s family are from Stow on the Wold and Bourton on the Water 🙂 All my family are till in Gloucestershire….I would LOVE to send this book to my sister over there, so wondered if you have a UK version yet, that takes into account their different flour? Or a list of substitutes you found worked when you were over there? I have missed good bread since living in the US, so thank you sooooo much for this book…the bread tastes great…and is so easy and quick…perfect! Jan
>>>>>>>>>>Your Post: Cathy: My family spent two blissful weeks in London and then Stow-on-the-Wold this past summer, baking pretty much every day (we’re addicted). Every flour we used worked beautifully, but I did need to make adjustments. It’s becoming apparent that European users of our book generally have access to softer flours than typical American all-purpose flour. In the US, flour “hardness,” or protein content, is about 10 or 11 percent for all-purpose. My guess is that your protein content is closer to 9… if so, you’ll need more flour, or less water. Otherwise the dough will be too slack. It’s not too late to try to incorporate another quarter-cup of flour… Otherwise, a little more flour in the next batch. Please let us know how your experiments go.
Jeff
Hi Jeff and Zoe,
It looks like my friends really want whole wheat breads, so I tried baking some of the 100% whole wheat sandwich bread as a boule today! I did the gluten cloak and then let it rise for 40 min (cold dough). Then I treated it like the Italian Semolina bread–put cornstarch glaze on it and also sunflower seeds before slashing it.
One bread was smaller, so I used a thermometer to measure 190 degrees for doneness. The thing is, they both got a bit too dark on top. I shielded the larger one with foil on top when I took out the smaller one, so it wouldn’t darken as much.
I’d like to do this bread again, it should be pretty tasty. I’m going to deliver one to a friend today. But should I have done flour on top instead of cornstarch glaze?
Thanks so much
Judy
If I use more yeast will the bread (granola) bread get higher? Its wonderful bread but I want it rounded on top not flat. So….more yeast-higher outcome? Thanks so much. I have bought 6 of the books!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hi, I’ve really been enjoying the bread from your book! I have a question about the dough, though. I have had the master dough recipe in the fridge for almost 2 weeks. I just pulled it out to make a loaf and noticed a thick skin on the dough. It is stiff and a darker color than the dough underneath. The dough on the bottom is moister, lighter and stretchier. I mixed it all in while I was forming the ball, but now wonder if that “skin” was normal and ok to eat. Thanks for your help!
Ok, we just sampled the Whole Wheat Boule. It was GREAT! The texture was just perfect, not too dry. The seeds stayed on because of the cornstarch glaze. I just wish it wasn’t so dark! Suggestions? My friends think I should be selling breads like this at the Farmers Market.
Fred: See how it goes, I think your next batch will work well.
Jan: Boy, I love that little corner of the world. Just about the friendliest people I ever encountered. Unfortunately, the publisher is not planning a UK version, so people who buy our book over there end up doing conversions, which aren’t difficult. Our second book will have some tables that make that easier, but you can get the info anywhere on the web. Google has a nice utility for unit conversion– just type the following into any Google search window: “3 cups in ml.” Or whatever the specific you need; the result comes back as the search result.
About the flour, that’s trickier. Our recipes were based on U.S. unbleached all-purpose flour, about 10% protein. So long as you can find that kind of product (it exists in the UK), you’re measurements will work. If you use a high-protein flour, you need more water; a low-protein flour uses less water. Check out for more on this: https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=140.
Judy: Well, some people find that cornstarch wash does over-brown in their oven. Any chance your oven’s running too hot? The other way to address that is to bake closer to the bottom of the oven, where the top crust won’t brown as much. If you can’t come up with something that works well, stick with the flour topping.
Sally: No, our recipes are pretty much max’d out on yeast and you won’t get further effect by increasing it. The granola has a lot of heavy ingredients that conspire to prevent a high dome. You might want to add vital wheat gluten (will also need a little more water)– see https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142
Amanda: The skin is fine to eat, but if it’s really hard and dry it may result in some tough patches in the bread. My guess is that it just looks a little funny but isn’t all that dehydrated. See what happens. As always, discard dough that has grown mold patches, which look like white, off-white, or dark flat spots on the dough, whether or not there is a fuzziness (hairiness) on them. A little dark liquid collecting on top of the dough is also OK, just pour it off.
Hi Jeff,
I think my oven may have been a bit hot. I have an oven thermometer now, per your suggestion. It would be $110 to calibrate the oven!
Funny thing, I set the oven temp to 480. Most of the thermometer registers 450. Today, it registered at probably 460. I don’t know why the difference. I’ve had to adjust the temp before. But this time, I didn’t think it would matter that much. I guess it did. Also, I did move the stoneware from the middle shelf to the top. Last time I baked, the bread almost hit the shelf above.
So I’ll move the stoneware back down and also watch the temp. THANKS!
I also noticed that after I close the oven door, the steam comes out of my Thermador. I keep a towel to catch the water, but I wish it didn’t do that. I am baking multiple breads to save energy costs (I’m getting another stone so I can do 4 at a time) so It’s kind of hard to cover them all with foil lasagne pans.
Suggestion on that?
Can’t wait till your whole grain book comes out!!!
Judy
Jeff,
At least I was able to add the right amount of water to get the right consistency! I had weighed the KA whole wheat flour as if it were all purpose. I guess I have a feel of what the dough should be like.
Amanda, thanks for your question, I was wondering the same thing! I think I’ll cover my bowl better after the first day.
Judy: Doing many at once is fine, but that means you have lots, and have them going stale before eating? Doesn’t matter if steam comes out the vents of the oven, so long as you like the result. If your steam is coming out of the oven and you don’t like the crust result (dull, thick, hard but not crisp), try one of the alternatives at https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=510
Also, see https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=140 for adjusting flour/water ratios based on flour chosen.
Hi Jeff,
I am considering baking for the Farmers Market.
Right now, baking 4 breads on 2 stoneware pans would be great for me. I can take the breads to potlucks as a treat.
I traded a chocolate maker for chocolate for some bread yesterday.
I can bring them as hostess gifts for friends. We drive 75 miles to our shul and the breads would be good hostess gifts when we stay at their place overnight. Plus, it’s energy efficient to bake as many as possible at the same time.
How about if I put the broiler pan on the very top shelf and use the two stoneware pans on 2 lower shelves? I think if I move the top shelf up, I will have enough room. That might give me enough room and solve overbrowning from putting the stone near the top shelf.
THANKS SO MUCH,
Judy, TN
I am going to bookmark your page on flour. And I’ll make a copy to paste in the front of my book!!! THANKS
Judy: Water pan on top is fine, works despite expectations.
I love your book so far. I love my bread that I’ve made from your recipes. Thank you. I am thinking about the granola bread. I recently purchase a case of Bob’s Red Mill Muesli thinking my family would like it, but they won’t eat it, but only want my granola recipe. (I must admit it’s really good.) Well, I have all this Muesli and want to use it. I’ve tried it in a health bar recipe. It was OK, not great, but too much sugar. So my question is this. Can I use Muesli instead of granola in your granola bread recipe? What other changes would you make?
Absolutely, just try a 1 for 1 substitution. If it looks too wet or dry, just work in a little more flour or water. That’s the way we experiment with our method– should work for you, it’s easy!
Love your book!!! what is the weight of 1 cup of durum flour
Today I made half of a Master Recipe. I grossly miscalculated and instead of 2.25 teaspoons each of yeast and salt, I used 3/4 teaspoon of each – half of the correct amount.
Of course my dough didn’t rise too much during the initial two hour resting period. I didn’t realize my error until after it had been sitting in the fridge for several hours and it was too late to add more yeast.
Can I still use the dough – how will it turn out? Or should I just dump it?
Amy: Durum weighs 5.5 ounces per cup (measured by “scoop and sweep” method).
Ellen: Just take it out and let it sit on the counter until it’s risen as much as you’re used to. Since it’s going to be cold, that might take all day. But it will work. See https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=85 and https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=139 for discussion of low yeast and low salt version of our bread.
Don’t dump it!
I have been wanting to get back into making bread, but have the typical time crunch of many. I found your book by chance, and love it! My first (and subsequent)boule was perfect, and my friends were very impressed!
I would find it helpful to have a reference list of the basic breads and what other breads they can be used for as well.Ex. basic boule can be used for focaccia. A thought to include in a second edition?
Thanks for bringing fresh bread back in my life!
Charlie
Charlie: Yes, we may be able to do that. It’s an “extra” so will be up to the publisher. No plans for a second edition but we have a new book coming out in Fall or Christmas the latest, on breads made with whole grains, fruits, and vegetables.
Hi Jeff,
I keep my yeast in the fridge. I’ve always measured it out and kept it out awhile so that it gets to room temp.
The water temp is 80 degrees unless I warm it up.
This recipe is so forgiving that maybe I can forgo bringing the yeast to room temp and warming the water. I’ve seen the information on cooler wateer–just let it rise longer. But what about yeast, directly from the fridge.
Also, I put the broiler pan on the top shelf to see how it would work. Not sure I want to do that, as I am afraid some of the water might go onto the stone/bread below. And it’s harder to aim at the top of the stove and quickly close the door on the bottom. If I use 2 stones, I’ll probably do the spray technique while I am still in the kitchen doing cleanup or making another batch.
Thanks for all these tips. I am making a word document of my “must remember AB5 tips!”
Judy
Judy: Correct, you don’t need to bring the yeast to rm temp. If you use cool water, be ready for a long rise time. Could even be overnight or longer at room temp to get the rise you’re used to seeing.
Ok, Jeff, I’ll warm the water some. But it seemed to take up more time than I wanted getting the temp right. Warm in microwave, check temp, warm some more, check it… Maybe you have an easier way?
I am trying to cut my time so I can see how quickly I can do the process. I counted 21 minutes to get ingredients out, measure/weigh, put the dough in the bucket , and clean up last night, and take it to the outside fridge.
Jeff, I just took out the first batch of baguettes in my new baguette pan. I need help! I don’t know how to use the pan, couldn’t find directions online. First of all, I used as much as for a boule, they rose over the top. It’s a double perforated black pan. I cut some dough off. I wasn’t sure if I should grease the pan or not, and I did one of them. I baked them on top of the stone.
Well, I just took them out of the oven when they measured 190degrees. The top looks nice. But they stuck to the bottom, the ungreased was harder to remove.
When I wedged them out after they cooled some, I noticed that the bottom didn’t have the nice crust like on top. They had the pattern of holes like the pan, and very pale.
I did have a problem with getting the water onto the broiler pan underneath it. In my haste, I got some water onto the stone (it never happened before).
I just put the loaves back onto the stone after removal, hoping they will brown up on the bottom without making them overdone.
What can I do differently next time, so the baguette come out more easily and crusty on the bottom?? I have a friend who is craving baguettes.
Thanks so much,
Judy in TN
Judy: I bring a small volume of water to a boil, then add it to a large volume of water. I’m just trying to bring it to lukewarm.
Sounds like you should grease these pans, though I’m guessing that eventually they’ll “cure” and won’t need it forever. For now, a light coating of oil, wipe w/paper towel.
Sounds like you should use half the amount of dough, maybe the size of an orange.
Personally, I don’t think these pans do quite as good a job on the bottom crust as the stone, so what you saw may be typical. But it’s a pretty good compromise, I think.
About crustiness, assuming your oven is the correct temp as checked with a thermometer, I don’t think there’s much else you can do, but some people have reported crustier baguettes when baked at 475 F.
Yes, Jeff, I check the oven temp with my thermometer. With my oven set to 475, it will get to 450. It’s that far off! So I might try it a bit hotter, not sure.
I got the baguette pan to get the shape I want. Thought that it would be an improvement. Now I am not so sure. Maybe I’ll try the past poster’s way of forming a baguette roll by rolling it 3x.
Maybe a stiffer batch of dough when making baguettes, and not using the baguette pan???
Yes, that can work nicely. As for Pain d’Epi.
Jeff, FYI, ,my active time of making 2 boule–from start of bringing out ingredients to final cleanup of the finished product is 40 minutes. At a low $8 per hour labor, if you are selling it to someone, it’s $5.40 for 2 loaves. I didn’t cost out ingredients, but I think you said 21cents a loaf. So it’s about $2.99 labor and ingredients. I didn’t add anything for electricity yet, but I might do that later.
Judy
Have you tried your method with any success for making gluten-free bread? Any advice on what flours & additions would work in place of the wheat flours?
Thanks
Jan
I spotted your conversion figures for making the batches by weight and it is much faster. However, using my mental math I ended up with dough that handled like a 1 lb ball of jello. I wanted to have a peasant dough with 1 cup of rye and 1/2 cup whole wheat. Subtracting 1 1/2 cups from the whole 2 lbs, I ended up with 1 lb 8 1/2 oz all purpose, to which I added 4 1/2 oz rye (1 cup) plus 2 1/4 oz whole wheat. It had great taste and lots of wholes but had a less crackly crust and like I said, was difficult to handle, even after refrigeration. Where did I go wrong?
Yes, holes, not wholes.
Jan: Gluten-free recipes will be in our next book, out in fall or by Christmas the latest. Can’t say much for now, but we’ll have about 10 gluten-free recipes and the rest will be whole wheat, fruits, and vegetables.
Nina: Well, that should have worked. Just increase the flours by 3 ounces or so and you should be fine. Sometimes rounding errors throw these conversions off.
Hi Jeff and Zoe,
Turns out my friend, the one that’s craving baguettes, has gone on the South Beach diet! She doesn’t want to eat white flour. She would rather not wait till your new book comes out at the end of the year for more whole wheat recipes.
I think the 100% whole wheat recipe in the book is too sweet for a baguette (IT’S TERRIFIC WITH SUNFLOWER SEEDS, THOUGH!) Are any of the other recipes appropriate for whole wheat baguettes?
This would be something different to make, something people couldn’t buy in the store.
Also, if I switch from kosher salt in the recipes to regular table salt, should I use non-iodized table salt? I checked the book and I am not sure.
Thanks so much,
Judy, TN
Judy: You can leave out the sweeteners from the WW if you like, may have to adjust the liquid/dry proportions a bit (haven’t tested this). Or use the light whole wheat (much less whole-grain though). You can also leave the sweetener out of the recipe on p 78, consider dropping the honey adjusting liquids/dry as needed.
If you switch to table salt, decrease as shown in https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=139. Doesn’t matter to the flavor whether or not the salt is iodized.