Q&A MISC. Bread Questions
Until we can figure out a more sophisticated way to handle your feedback, your praise and your questions, we hope the following series of Q&A posts will help. Our goal is to get a conversation going about a particular topic in one location. Hoping that it will be easier for you to follow and get the information you need to bake gorgeous bread.
If we haven’t started a thread on the subject you are interested in then leave it here and we can create another post!
Thank you so much for all of the conversation. We enjoy it immensely and are learning so much from you all!
Zoë and Jeff
A quick question- sometimes after making the dough and letting it rise(the first rise), it never seems to collapse, even after about 3 hours or so at room temp. Should I leave it out until it does collapse, or go ahead and put it in the fridge?
I am thrilled to find your book. I just made my first recipe, and couldn’t stop myself from eating half a loaf!! I moved from Los Angeles to Northeast Tennessee (my husband’s job, NPR station), and have to learn to make the breads I miss. Thanks! A few questions:
1). I can’t use the broiler pan for making my breads. I use my broiler pan for cooking meats, and don’t mix meat pans with non-meat cooking. I tried using a heavy duty cookie sheet, but the water evaporated. Can’t I just add some water to a pyrex bowl or something? Or maybe I should buy something? I’d rather use something that i have around the house.
2. I used my pyrex big bowl to mix the dough and let it rise in the fridge. I partially covered it with plastic wrap. Is this ok?
3. I have been using a bread machine to knead my dough for challah, because of pain in my hands. It sounds exciting to make challah your way. It sounds like I can make the dough early in the week and then bake it on Thursday night or Friday afternoon, before the Sabbath starts, right?
Thanks so much for bringing these breads into my life. I can’t wait to make the deli rye!
Judy
In your Vermont Cheddar bread recipe, can you add more cheese? And do you need to alter the rest of the ingredients? I have had a chain store loaf with Asiago cheese that I loved and wanted to try at home. I swapped out the cheddar for Asaigo and found I wanted a more cheesy taste. I did experiment with adding shredded cheese to the decorative cuts ontop, but would like more cheese inside.
Also 1 more question… How deep do you slash your loaf? I have only done the master reciepe and the cheddar bread ones. I think I have done 3 batches of dough and on every loaf the decorative slashes open up so much you can’t see them after baking. Don’t get me wrong. Everyone loved them. It was just for 2 holiday parties where I wanted a better presentation. For those 2 I tried making baguettes.
Thanks again for a wonderful book. My husband and picky eater son eat the bread up so fast it is almost too hard to keep up with.
Warm Regards,
Diana
Diana: the cheese doesn’t give up water to speak of, so you should be able to get away with increasing the cheese by 15 or 20%. Beyond that and I’d be concerned about the extra fat making the loaf over-dense, but see what you think if you want to push beyond that.
Our slashes are a good quarter-inch deep. Make sure you slash just before they go in the oven (not at the start of the rest/rise).
Thanks for the kind words! Jeff
Jeff: Sorry I missed you above. We haven’t worked out Baker’s Percentages for the Brioche, but as you know, it’s pretty easy to do. 1 cup of AP measured our way weighs 5 ounces, so you can go from there.
John B: Yeah, sometimes it doesn’t clearly collapse. If it’s expanded nicely at three hours as you describe, just refrigerate it.
Judy: Whatever you do, DON’T use pyrex or other glass vessel for catching steam water — it will SHATTER! Any metal vessel will work, whatever you like. So long as it’s not glass.
Plastic wrap on a bowl is fine for mixing the dough as you describe.
Challah question: Yep, that’s what I do. Or freeze a loaf-sized portion and defrost on Thursday night in the fridge. Then rest at room temp as usual once shaped. Thanks Judy!
Wow, Jeff, thanks for telling me about the pyrex shattering! You saved me from a BIG problem! I thought pyrex is really heat proof.
The baking sheet that i used this time is commercial type. it did cook off the nice glaze, but I guess I could use it again. I just bought a Silpat recently so I could use that if I want to bake directly on that, if I want to bake ont that for something else.
I tried baking a second loaf and added more water, though. The hot pan warped at first! It did go back into shape, though.
I tried baking two loaves, one after the other, because I am trying to save energy. It’s really pricey electricity-wise, to heat up the oven to 450degrees for baking just one loaf of bread.
Any comments on how to save energy in baking this way, and on the baking pan warping?
Thanks for your wonderful handholding. And thanks for making it easier for me to say the blessing, “vetzivanu lehafrish challah!” 🙂
Judy
Hi Judy: Thinner pans will warp from water being dumped on them at high temp. You also get a calcium deposit on there that’s really hard to get off. I use the broiler tray because I just don’t care if it warps. We virtually never use the broiler of our oven anyway, we just go out to the gas grill when we want that kind of heat source.
I like your idea for saving energy but it means that you have to store that second loaf– try freezing it? In the MN winter, we’re not really wasting the energy– it heats the house and takes some of the burden off the central heating system. So, a little more oven electricity use, but a little less natural gas in the furnace. 6 of one…
Challah is taken, indeed! So it is written…
Jeff,
oh, so that’s what the discolation on the baking sheet from the hot water is? calcium deposit?
You got me thinking–we don’t use our broiler pan much either. It’s been “over a year,” I think. My husband prefers disposable to the cleanup. So I could do what I need to do to make the broiler pan ok to use with this method. I’ll check on that.
Our electric oven has an automatic exhaust when you turn off the oven. The former owners used the exhaust that way for our Thermador (unfortunately, our only kitchen exhaust). So turning it off won’t help heat the house. But I think I could fool it by turning it on a low temperature and then opening the oven door to heat the house. That way, I’ll use the heat.
I do wonder how a previous poster did 6 breads for a meeting. One after the other???
Thanks for bringing these to my attention! I AM JAZZED!!!
Judy
Jeff I have slashed at least that deep and just before going into the oven. They still really open up on me. Can I be doing something else wrong?? Still tastes wonderful.
Hmm. Well, they’re supposed to open up and get crusty on the open areas. Maybe this is normal?
I can’t believe I’m saying this, but you could slash more shallowly?
Hi guys.
Thanks for answering my question (dough not collapsing)- one last one. With the several loaves that I have baked, even though I get good (great!) crust, and the flavor is great, the crumb just seems slightly underdone (maybe just a hair), even though the internal temp of the bread is around 195-200, and it has cooked for the specified time. Should I be letting it cook a little longer, or is this a product of the wetter dough? Its just a little moister than I am used to. Doesn’t really bother me, just not what I am used to from other breads.
John: This is definitely a wetter dough and moister bread than you’re used to. If you’re using a thermometer, try 205 degrees F for lean breads (or just go for a longer bake to a darker crust). You’ll probably prefer the result.
Recently someone posted a query about incorporating the old “triple rich” or Cornell formula to ABin5 – I was intrigued as this was one of my old stand-by recipes (I lived in Ithaca for 6 yrs in the mid 70’s, home of Cornell and Triple Rich bread) so I tried it this week with good success – used Master recipe and substituted 3 T full fat soy flour and 1 T wheat germ along with 3 T dry milk powder for 1/4 cup of the AP flour – added about 1 T+ of additional water – initial rise was quite a bit longer-close to 4 hours, but my house is quite cool. Only mixed up a 1/2 recipe (just in case of failure) and today I took about 2/3 of it and put in 8 x 4 loaf pan – rest +/- 1 1/2 hrs and then baked for 40 min at 350. It was a lovely fragrantly delicious soft-crumbed loaf – definitely worth a try if anyone wants to add a little extra protein boost to their bread. Next time I may double the substitution.
And for those who worry about bread consumption – most of the recipes (except for challah and brioche) are practically sugar and fat-free and and good piece of bread (and I agree, Jeff, especially rye!)is often better than cake!
Amy: Thanks for the formula, I’ve got to try this one, it sounds great!
Yep, better than cake…
Nuts. I just can’t seem to get the hang of this. Mixed a batch yesterday – adding the thyme and rosemary. Planned to cover the opening on the oven door to prevent steam from excaping (too hard crust from previous post). Well the batch didn’t rise. I left it out hours longer as it is cold in house (high of 18 yesterday). Just looked at it and still hasn’t risen. Yeast was new and says use before July of 09. Thoughts, suggestions, help. Thank.
Maureen– go ahead and bake it anyway. I bet it is spreading sideways but the hole structure will be fine (meaning it’s “risen,” just in a sideways direction).
It’s probably a matter of getting the “cloaking” right (see our videos at https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?page_id=63). Or maybe you should try doing one in a greased non-stick loaf pan– fill it about 3/4’s full and bake until very brown. Jeff
Hi Jeff, After reading all this page’s info on flours, I have aquestion on how to use up my bread flour. Now I understand why my dough (only my second batch, making challah today for first time) seem dry. I use King Arthur unbleached flour. I’ve found that I had to add water both times! Looks like I need to cut back on my flour (a cost saving!). I think baked goods from KA taste MUCH better.
But what about all that King Arthur bread flour that I’ve stocked up on for my favorite bread machine challah recipe? I’ve switched to this method, and won’t be using the bread machine now.
2. How do I adjust for using KA bread flour?
By the way, a friend of mine has been baking like this for quite a number of years. I looked down on her for the way she measured and baked it. I almost broke my food processor trying to make her recipe. Glad to learn how to mix it by hand. The steel blade on my Cuisinart got stuck (almost burnt the motor/overloaded it) or it lifted up so it won’t turn the dough.
2. Could I try the food processor again (1/2 batch) with more water?
3. My friend adds more honey, to make it sweeter. How much more honey can I add? Will that sub for more water?
Thanks! Hope you get a good webperson to help you create a database of questions/answers or a more searchable website.
And if you ever come to the International Storytelling Center in Jonesborough, TN, I hope you will look us up. I got my husband to see the video, and now he’s excited and involved with this! He’s a program director of the NPR station here.
Jeff, re: not rising above. It is in the same plastic container I always use – where it rises high, then settles. When I look at it sideways through the plastic, it looks as if there is a layer of water on top. I think I measured the right amount of flour – but could this be a “not enough flour” issue. Thanks again.
Any problems with using a metal container for mixing and refrigerating the dough? I was thinking of using a aluminum or other metal stockpot. I’m wondering if it will interact poorly with the yeast, like tomatoes would.
Purchased your book about a month ago and have made bread 3 times a week since. INCREDIBLE!
We’ve just moved on to the whole wheat bread which we love free form.
I got my new Eating Well (jan/feb 09) and they have a no-knead Seeded Multigrain Boule dough in there but they use instant yeast, bread flour, WW flour, ground brown rice, and SEVERAL kinds of seeds; DARE I TRY IT WITH REGULAR YEAST AND YOUR METHOD or am I throwing money into the fire?
I realize it’s hardly fair to ask this question recipe-unseen; but I thought MAYBE one of you might take Eating Well and have seen it; if not, please, spend no time on this.
CONGRATS on a new book; I’ll be in line to get it!
Marcia in Colorado at 7,000 ft
Hi I’m advertising your book to all but I’ve come across a problem I’m not sure what to do with.
So my first batch was great. But my consecutive batches have gotten dense and hardish in the fridge It’s hard to describe but kind of like cheap playdough, it’s more crumbly (but in big pieces) than stretchy)
I’m wondering if it may be a water issue (like too little) or maybe fridge temp. Or if you’ve run into this problem.
The bread tastes okay but the dough does not rise at all during the prebaking rise and they’re obviously shorter (But do rise some in the oven).
I feel like the dough was much more loose and tacky in my first batch. ANy suggestions? This is with the basic, euro peasant and olive oil recipes
oh and I forgot the brioche did it too
oh, found the adjustments to King Arthur bread flour in the book. Sorry.
does anyone have opinions on whether a metal pizza peel (like at King Arthur) or a wood pizza peel (like Sassafras) is better? I’m wondering if the dough would slip off the metal one too easily. Don’t want it falling on the floor. But I don’t want it not slipping off the wood, either.
Thanks!
Hi Marissa,
It does sound like the dough may be too dry. I’d try adding about a 1/4 cup more water to the dough. Did you switch the type of flour that you are using? There are some brands that have more protein than others and therefore absorb more water.
It could also just be that flour is dryer in the winter and you are noticing it in your dough?
Try adding more water and see if that fixes the problems.
Thanks, Zoë
Hi Marcia,
I have not yet read the article in Eating Well magazine, but I’ll check it out soon. Until then I’m afraid I can’t advise you on converting it.
Jeff, have you read the article???
So glad you are enjoying all the bread!
Thanks, Zoë
awesome thanks so much I’ll definitely try that
zoe, I did get new/different flour so I’m pretty sure that was the issue, I’ve got another one for you.
So I’ve been making partial batches and just adding it to what’s left of my previous batch mixing it real quick and it’s turned out great. Is there any reason why I shouldn’t do that for a long time. So far I’ve made sure that I’ve used any dough that has been combined by the earliest/original two week mark. Just wondering if there’s any reason to keep track like that or if it should be okay if I keep combining.
When I’ve did this with my first two batches the flavor and the rise has been really good
Jeff and Zoe,
I have salt restrictions, how much salt can I safely use (as little as possible and still retain some taste) without affecting how the bread works? Or does it even matter?
I just got the book and love it. I want to read all the comments and try many recipes.
I don’t want to do salt free, just less. Thanks,
Sharon Helmeich
I was born in the UK and particularly want to make the Granary bread. However King Arthur tell me that the malted wheat flakes are no longer available. WAAAH!
Do you have any suggestions as to how I can obtain these?
Or substitutions that will work!
I am having a BLAST with your recipes and methods. I just sent my husband to work with a stuffed Pita and got back a note that said WOW!
A thousand thanks! (-_-)
I’ve tried the master recipe and am looking forward to getting the book soon. I would love to have an artisan version of German Brotchen. I liked this bread so much when I was in Germany because it tasted great with either meat or fruit. I would love to have an artisan recipe of this incredible bread to pass on to my family. Thanks for inspiring me!
OK, to all of you since I last was here:
Judy: Metal’s fine in all the cases you mention, no major difference (though I prefer the wood pizza peel).
Marissa: So long as it’s not an egg dough, you can keep recycling the dough w/o washing as long as you like. I wash each egg-based dough’s container each time.
Sharon: Try halving or quartering the salt (we made our stuff relatively salty). Our second book will use 50% less in the first place (as a starting point– you can always decrease).
Maggie: I’m told that the granary flour is in some health food stores (can’t confirm). You can use barley flour as a substitute but it won’t be the same. You can order this stuff from the UK but that is a very expensive option.
Mary: I don’t know any Brotchen recipes myself, but if you start with one you like, just follow the principles in the book to adapt it. Jeff
I would like to add flax seed to a loaf. Please advise which recipe would be best, amount I can add and any other adjustment I should make?? Thanks in advance.
Sandra– our second book will have lots of flax, but none of the material is ready for the Web just yet. Take a look at page 46 in the book, increase the water, swap in some ground flax & see what you think.
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for getting back! Just want to be sure I understand you. If I keep the dough in the fridge in an aluminum stockpot, it won’t interact negatively with the yeast? I can put my challah dough in that?
Wow. An aluminum stock pot up less room sideways than an big pyrex bowl.
Thanks for the comments about the flour. I see that I will be adding more water because of the flour I use.
I am turning friends onto trying baking this way!
I routinely use a stainless steel pot for this and it works out fine. I haven’t used aluminum but I can’t imagine it’s going to be a problem. Jeff
Hi – Two questions: I am most interested in sticking with whole wheat bread, as close to 100% as possible. I am on South Beach diet and we are to be eating bread with a minimum of 3g of fiber per slice. I know you don’t want to “medicinize” your recipes but wondered if you think the whole whole wheat recipe would come close to this? Also, I have vital wheat gluten, stored in Tupperware in the fridge, that hasn’t been used for over a year. Does that stuff spoil?
Thanks, in advance,
Suzan
THANKS, Jeff! You saved me a bunch of money buying something to hold the dough.
My outside fridge is now a baking fridge (it was full of Trader Joes stuff till I ate most of it up. The nearest store is 3 hours).
The challah doesn’t have much oven spring. I don’t think I added enough water. Will do your adjustments next time. THANKS! Boy, you will see more of your books being sold here in NE Tennessee!
I heard of your bread recipe on the Splendid table program and asked for your book and a backing stone for Christmas 2007.
Ever since then I have been backing bread most days of the week.
I wanted to let you know that I have settled on a variation that is not in your book.
I form the dough into a loaf and then roll it out in a pile of sesame seeds. No flour or corn meal is used. The more sesame seeds that stick the dough the better the loaf comes out.
Thanks for changing my life
Susan: you can enhance our 100% WW bread on page 76 with the suggestions at https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=142. My best estimate of the fiber content on that bread is right around 3 to 4 grams per slice, so long as you have a 1 1/2 to 2 ounce slice, like a store-bought bread. Not a tiny slice. Fill the loaf pan 3/4 full to get that nice full look on the slices.
If the VWG smells OK, I’d think it was OK. They say it’s to be stored under refrigeration once opened, and you’ve done that.
Brian: Thanks for the kind words, and welcome to the site. We’re doing something similar with pita for the 2nd book but with a seed mixture. Jeff
I just got your book and only wish I had your book a long time ago. I’m hoping you will make it to Seattle some time in 2009.
In my laziness to shop for a nonstick loaf pan.I mad the crusty white bread in a glass loaf pan lined with parchment that I sprayed with oil and it worked beautifully! It looked like a present coming out of the oven! My goal is to make all my bread.
The bread is easy to make and is fantastic. Thanks for making it possible!
Today, I used an iron Dutch oven to bake my boule.
Preheat oven and covered pot at 450 for 45 minutes. Slide bread into pot, cover and bake for 30 minutes. Remove lid, bake 15 minutes more until desired brown.
Remove from pot and cool.
This is a bit easier and neater than using the stone and water pan. How intriguing that when the pot is covered for the initial 1/2 hour of baking,it creates it’s own steam. No broiler pan needed!
Bread was equally crusty and moist as if done on the stone, and no cornmeal scattered around.
Hi Jeff,
When I did baking in my bread machine, I checked out the weight of King Arthur flour. The bread baking book said that Gold Medal (or Pillsbury?) told them that a cup of their all-purpose flour was 5oz. BUT King Arthur said of cup of their all-purpose flour weighs 4.25 oz. This is lightly spooned into the cup. I’m used to doing that, I learned to bake in the Nestle test kitchen before working in their consumer affairs.
Now I bake by weight. So can you tell me–how much does a cup of King Arthur all purpose and King Arthur bread flour weigh, by your method of scoop and sweep? (which totally negates everything I learned about measuring flour!) 🙂
I could weigh a cup myself, but it might be different.
Thanks so much,
Judy
First of all, looove your book. I used to be a home bread baker but gave it up due to lack of time, and have since been buying those $6 loaves from the local bakery or food co-op. I know you mention freezing the dough in a few recipes, but I am wondering if you can give me some general guidelines for freezing that would apply to all the dough recipes. I would like to have 3 or 4 different types of dough on hand but I don’t think iI could manage it if they were all in the refrigerator. Thanks!
Kathleen
Nancy: Thanks for posting– yes, parchment works nicely in this situation.
Toby: Our stuff works nicely in the covered iron pot, or in a cloche. That traps the steam and makes steaming the oven unneccesary.
Judy: “Spoon and sweep” packs much lighter than “scoop and sweep,” as you know. Our recipes were tested with “scoop and sweep.” Use 5 ounces for KAF AP, but use a little more water, because the protein content is higher, see https://artisanbreadinfive.com/?p=140
Kathleen: I find that the lean doughs can freeze for up to a month when well sealed. We say the same in our book about the enriched doughs but some people have found them a bit dense if frozen longer than 2 weeks. Defrost overnight in the fridge before shaping and resting as usual (you may like longer rest times; 60-90 minutes rather than the 40 we specify in the book– especially with dough that has been frozen). Jeff
Jeff or Zoe,
I’ve made up 10 lbs of Better for Bread flour, but today I made two batches…one Cheddar Cheese with fine cheddar and a batch of brioche and both are too wet. I didn’t discover it until the Cheddar had risen for over two hours and I started to make out a loaf. I used all the flour I dared on the board making it out and it spread sideways and then I realized the brioche was also too wet. I’m afraid to try at this point to mix in more flour as I might/would over-handle it. I did put some on top and down the sides in the storage container, but it may be hard to deal with. I also made a loaf in a pan as you mention in the book and it and the wide boule both baked fine, and I know it’s because I used unbleached AP flour when i’m used to the other flour. Next time I’ll use more flour and watch how much water I use, but is there anything I can do to make this better?
Is there any safe way to mix in more flour after it’s finished the first rise?
Pat
I made my 1st batch last Saturday. I love the taste and the crust of the bread.
I baked another loaf today after 6 days in the fridge.
I bake it for 30 min. I find that the dough in the middle is chewy.
Is this normal?
Pat: Just work in some more flour and then give it a two hour rest on the counter. It’s not actually a big deal, especially early in the batch. Just go for it.
Helene: Two options, a longer bake time, or just mix it a little drier (as in Pat’s question– you can do it in the first place, or even after the fact). Jeff
thanks Jeff. One more question. If one does not have a broiler pan (long story) , what is the best utensil that one substitute?
Any shallow pan, so long as it’s not made of glass, even pyrex. Those shatter.
Whatever you use will in time get coated with calcium deposits and it will probably warp a bit. The broiler pan is nice because people tend not to care much, but any metal baking dish will work.
Jeff said, “Pat: Just work in some more flour and then give it a two hour rest on the counter. It’s not actually a big deal, especially early in the batch. Just go for it.”
Now, it’s been in the fridge for 4 hours after having already risen for 2 1/2 hrs. Should I do it now?
Thanks,
Pat